Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000

[castella]

hi DD

it's my understanding they cannot do it post termination approx 2 years after termination--- & also because the claim has commenced--

once an ineffective default notice has been issued followed by a termination notice as BRW (i think) says they are in deep do-dah.with regards to their entitlements under s.87/88 of the act

x20 refers to it on his tale of a dodgy dn.

No I have not put it on my site as yet

castella

[Desperate Daniella]

I agree with you. As far as I am aware you can only get one Default Notice. I am really hoping that the two you get are so different it'll be very, very clear what they are trying to do.

 

I think they are all getting really desperate - A number of caponers have been sold joblot to Lowells.

 

DD

[cashins]

As far as I am aware you can only get one Default Notice.

 

As I understand it, while the account is live there is no limit to the number of DN's issued.

 

Once the account is terminated however, it's game over.

 

David

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry for misinformation. I thought I'd read that somewhere here.

 

Surely they can't change the wording on one sent this year compared to one sent two years ago if we still have the first one they sent which is faulty, for example, on the days allowed to remedy. I thought I'd heard that Amex weren't changing the DNs because to do so would mean they were admitting the ones they have been using were wrong. ??

[dp77]

I have discovered something of interest. In 2004, when Amex's solicitors first contacted me, I queried a £668 "referral charge" added to my account,

 

Their solicitors replied by sending me a copy of my terms and conditions, which I still have, attached to the letter saying these conditions entitled their client to charge that fee.

 

Those terms and conditions I received in 2004 are totally different to the terms and conditions that were photocopied onto the back of the 60 second application form I recently received from Amex (this in response to a letter from me pointing out to Amex's solicitors that the application form had no terms or conditions on it).

 

On the balance of probability does this suggest some doubt as to what is actually on the back of the 60 Second Application?

 

Not only doubt but perhaps a deliberate attempt to mislead, either they sent me the wrong terms in 2004, in order to justify an illegal charge, or they photocopied the wrong terms onto my application form in 2009, in order to make the agreement appear enforceable.

 

Wondering what I should do about this?

[dp77]

Update; Today I received a photocopy of my application form, on the reverse of the single sheet were some terms and conditions. There was also a hand written annotation saying "We certify this is a true copy of the original" and signed by someone from Collections.

 

I now have 14 days to file a complete defence. Does anyone know if CPR 31.14 (or any other part of the CPR) entitles me to see the original? These terms were not on the reverse of my original application, nothing was, but I cannot prove that without the original. Doubtless Amex will claim it has been destroyed - I will bet £1,000,000 that they not produce the original in court - but I would like to show the court I made every effort to view the original.

[Desperate Daniella]

I am absolutely hopeless about CPR 14 or 16. Can't remember which way round but will have a look on other threads. Someone will advise on this, and you need to look at other Amex Defences which you can use as a guide.

 

When they photocopied my alleged agreement it was clear that the back didn't fit the front, but that was on a 2/3 A4 application which they had photocopied very strangely which made me very suspicious.

 

Remember, they have to bring the original to court. Yeats has been told they have his, and I have told him that I really think he must travel to see it and inspect it, because they could be bluffing, and he'll be able to see if they have tried to copy something on the back.

 

I don't think "someone" from Collections is good enough. This is another tactic these companies use. It should be signed by their Company Secretary at least - in other words, someone who has a legal responsibility, not someone in the collections postroom who is probably looking at a photcopy and doesn't know the difference.

 

DD

[dp77]

Hi Daniella, Thanks for your reply. The terms photocopied onto the back do fit (unlike yours, maybe they've had plenty of opportunity to develop their photocopying skills!), there are only 18 items. In fact they are the exact same terms as this poster has linked to (page three of the pdf, terms 1 to 18 ; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9045&d=1242836868

 

Someone from collections is neither here nor there. In court it needs to be a witness to the destruction of the original, who can confirm when it was destroyed and it will need to have been logged accordingly. However I'm sure Amex are relying on a Judge believing - on the balance of probability - that they had a two sided agreement.

 

I have ideas about how to change the Judge's mind on that, not least of which is the fact Amex sent me different T&C's a few years ago in a dispute over a walloping great £700 charge they added to my account. T&C's I still have, still stapled their solicitors letter saying "These are your terms and conditions", which is handy.

 

To my knowledge (mainly from reading this site) Amex have never produced an original agreement in court. They certainly won't produce mine, as it was blank on the reverse. They will claim it has been destroyed, and so I'm 100% certain they will not agree to a physical inspection by me, simply because they don't have the document.

 

I still want to ask however, as I think I must show the court I have done everything possible to view the original.

[castella]

Hi dp77 &DD

As regards to the Cpr 31.14 request I mentioned it in Tandem with CPR31.15 and I got to see what they purport to be the original Agreement.

Mine was a copy of the 60 second application form from some ten years ago, with a copy of the 18 items from the printed booklet of terms (from that period) printed on the back.

It looked like a brand new document in gold colour, not a ten year old document.

The text of the conditions differ in several instances from the card carrier copy of the original agreement that I still have. Also

There is no table under the item Annual Percentage Rate in the card carrier copy.

Also there are just the 18 Items, nothing else, there is no mention of cancellation rights on the rear, and no mention of application for a further card for a member of the family etc.

There is no mention of Use of your (and any additional applicant's) Personal Information: which states as a follow on from the front of the application form at Personal Information where it says in the first line

"Before signing the application, it is important that you read the paragraphs set out overleaf"

These would refer to:If an American Express Card is issued to you, you agree that American Express will:

1) disclose information about you & your card etc

2) use information about you and how you use your card etc

3) exchange information about you and your card account etc

4) carry out any credit checks whilst any money is owed by you

5) analyse information about you etc

6) monitor and/or record your telephone calls etc

7) undertake all of the above in respect of any additional cardholder etc

8) undertake all of the above within and outside the United Kingdom and the European Union. This includes processing your information in the USA in which Data protection laws are not are not as comprehensive as in the European Union etc.

Some or all of the above would be included on the back as this refers to personal information.

If you check your application forms which are purported to be 'your agreements', you will probably find that nowhere on the front does it state or refer to 'terms & conditions' or 'conditions' overleaf.

hope this is of some help

regards castella

[dp77]

Hi Castella,

 

You actually got to view the 'original'? If you did then that suggests a change of tactic from Amex, who never (at least according to every post I have read on here on the subject) produce originals.

 

If they have mocked up an 'original' then that is an entirely different circumstance to how they handled cases previously.

 

If you don't mind me asking do you have a court date yet? I'm very curious to see if they produce this 'original' in court.

[dp77]

Actually having just read through Yeats's thread it seems Amex are now photocopying (or perhaps even printing, as that is so easily done these days) terms & conditions onto the back of application forms and claiming this amalgamated document constitutes the 'original'.

 

Has anyone defended a case where this has happened, or know of one? I'm very interested to know if Amex actually turn up in court with this 'original' document, or if it is just another tactic to pressure people into folding.

Edited October 29, 2009 by dp77

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Castella,

 

Did this new document match what they had sent you previously? Because for what they said was on the back which didn't fit to fit they would have to reduce the print size.

 

Again, we come back to the question - why only 18 of the t & cs? Because that is what will (apparently) fit.

 

DD

[castella]

Hi dp77 Hi DD

No date as yet dp77

There were only 18 conditions in 1999 DD. As I said earlier today:

I have the card carrier copy of the agreement, The wording in some of the eighteen conditions differs, and there is no table in the card carrier copy.

Quoting Rankine back at Amex-with ref to para 28 in the judgement:

"when the agreement is executed a credit card is sent out, and usually this is attached to the 'card carrier' copy of the agreement.

This copy has to be sent to the borrower by virtue of..............

and this is the executed copy".

 

As I mentioned earlier today there is nowhere on the purported stated actual agreement (which Amex have put forward as the actual agreement), for any second applicant to apply,nor any of the items I made reference to under Personal Information (as regards to information overleaf) and the part of a list which I put forward.

Also the document is too new for something that is 10 years of age.

This document put forward as the purported original,significantly differs from the one as sent many months ago to the CCA s.78 request which was sent from Amex via Newmans with 20 items on, and also included cancellation rights.

So they would appear to be using someone from the magic circle to conjure up their purported agreements now.

[dp77]

Thanks for the information Castella, it seems to me this could be a scare tactic. They must know they are vulnerable when it comes to enforceability and this is their latest response. I am in the same situation as regards being sent completely different T&C's a while ago, different number of terms, different terms, different lettering, not all on one page, every single thing different. Now all of a sudden having the prescribed terms is crucial to winning, and 'hey presto' there they are on the back of our application forms.

 

Let's see if they produce one of these 'originals' in court. My attitude has turned around completely, I now want to get them into court, to hear them try and explain this myriad of inconsistencies.

 

I also intend to take a professional printer with me, if they grant access following my 31.15, and get an expert opinion on the 'originality' of the document.

[castella]

dp77 - remember the majority of district judges and deputy district judges are with respect weighted on one side!!!

You have to have good realistic arguements and put them over with conviction and finesse.

Remember the playing field is not so level at times, look at the unfortunate happenings with regards to Shakespeare 62--Shakespeare62 seemed to have done his homework and seemed to be well prepared and then met a DDJ who appeared to only be interested in playing cards of one form or another. As BRW says the DDJ/DJ situation is a lottery.

Eventually you will have your time in court, but you must prepare your case well, and do not get sidetracked.

Try to get a physical inspection of what Amex purport to be the actual agreement. Get them to give you a colour photocopy of it, and get them to confirm it is a copy of the original agreement and get them to sign date and rubber stamp it if possible.

Then read the application form part and pull it to bits word by word especially the personal information and credit agreement regulated boxes on the front.

Do they make reference to the back or overleaf of the application form in any way to your advantage.

For now, the clock is ticking and you need to prepare your defence, how is that shaping up--you must cover all the bases with your defence if possible--have a read of the ones suggested --also look at shakespeare62's defence &amended defence.

[dp77]

Thanks for your advice Castella. I'm under no illusions about who most judges are likely to favour. I've read horror stories about seemingly cut and dried cases where judges just weren't prepared to give the benefit of any doubt to the defendant. I accept I may lose, although I intend to take your advice - and that of others on here - and prepare as well and thoroughly as I can.

 

I haven't read Shakespeare 62's thread, but will look for it now.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Castella and dp77,

 

Castella, in 2000 there were 27, but only 18 on my alleged back.

 

dp77, maybe you need to make the DN a top priority because we know they are wrong.

 

Castella, haven't read Shakespeare's thread, will do so in the next day or so, but what happened re. his argument on a faulty DN?

 

DD

[dp77]

DD - I didn't get a default notice and I have kept records of everything.

 

I have just read through Shakespeare 62's thread - he was in a very similar position to mine and judgement went against him. The Judge seemed to ignore all the case law, didn't make the claimant produce any original documents, ignored the faulty DN, and from reading the transcript had made up his mind about the outcome before hearing any of the evidence.

 

That sounds like a worst case scenario, and to counter that there are posters on here with remarkable success stories - but it seems a lottery, almost wholly dependent on the calibre of Judge you get.

[castella]

Hi DD I have most of the originals, In 1999 it was definitely 18.but there were differences on the card carrier copies to the little booklets.

do you have originals, also look at my todays earlier post of what paragraphs may have been on the back and second applicant details.

 

dp77 shakespeare62 was up to speed it would seem, but the ddj was a 'bar steward' who liked to play cards it would seem. It is a lottery & I have been there already with a previous case and it can be daunting.

Hows your defence coming along

[dp77]

My defence is still in the planning stage. I'm trying to work out, mainly by ploughing through threads on here, what the best approach is. It seems, some people at least, feel endless lists of case law are likely to antagonise the Judge and something shorter, to the point and which directly rebuts the claimants allegations is better.

 

In my particular case I have been making repayments for a good few years, direct to the Amex solicitors. It seemed to be fine until the solicitors asked me to increase payments, or if not they would require a charge on my property, which obviously I didn't want to give them. I couldn't afford to increase payments, or pay them the % they demanded to settle. So they have responded by taking me to court.

 

I don't deny owing the money, but I do think if they are going to ultimately try to get a charge on my property - and possibly force a sale - then they better have all the legally required paperwork. And to the best of my knowledge they don't.

 

I'm really wondering how straight forward to be with my defence, I'm wondering if saying I'm not contesting the debt as such, but only the claimants right to enforce it is the right approach? I have kept on paying monthly instalments, that I can afford, and will continue to do so.

 

I believe, quite sincerely, that the attempt to force this debt to be secured - and in so doing jeopardising where I live - is not reasonable or legal. I would not have challenged the agreement, or disputed the debt, had they not taken me to court. I just don't know if a Judge will respond to that.

[castella]

dp77

CPR 31.15 (b) is the one to quote I believe for physical inspection.

 

Also have a look at PT2537 Defence at post42 in Help-Amex No CCA and theyve started court action. if you have not seen it already, I think it was Cunning Plan's thread

[dp77]

Hi Castella, You are correct, it is CPR 31.15 that grants the right to physical inspection. Letter has gone already.

 

I will check out that thread / post. Thanks.

[castella]

Hi DD

Thanks for the that - Yes what you say is what I already had thought--Much appreciated to have someone else think it as well though.So thanks for that.

 

dp 77 how is your defence shaping up?--are you going to post it up or just send it in to the court? When sending in, it should be 2 copies I believe.

[dp77]

Hi Castella, I will post up my defence this week.

 

Two copies of the defence must be sent to the court? Thank you, I didn't know that.

 

Also, I have a quick question about timings. I was served a document by the claimant in a letter dated October 26, allowing 5 days for Acknowledgement of Service and 14 days to file, is my deadline Friday November 13th (auspicious!) or Saturday November 14th?

 

Are courts open for mail delivery on Saturday? I will be delivering to the Northampton Bulk Centre.

[castella]

dp77

Do not leave it to the very last moment,you stated at post 81 on the 28/10 that you had received a photocopy, & had 14 days to file it.

So do the maths.

My personal thought is to have it there before the end of this week. so you need to be on the ball with it, and have everything ready to go by Wednesday.

(Send it signed for postage at the very least,but if you cannot afford that then certificate of posting,so that you have a record of it).

Have you done/included a skeleton sheet as to what is on each page of the defence--(42 man gave me that tip) just a one line 'precis' of what is on each page.

Best of luck