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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement


pt2537
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well i wont be abandoning my battle- but it does seem odd that CAg should deem that two consenting adults cannot agree to help each other against a creditor,

 

however- given some of the goings on with some of the site team on this forum- your comments do not surprise me

 

they have managed to drive a valued member off the site in favour of supporting one who has openly critcised CAG on other sites including credit today and is a moderator on a rival site

 

- ther's nowt so queer as folk!!

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Banks become the enemy when they hike the interest rates making it much more difficult to ever clear your debts.

 

MBNA hiked mine to 34.9%, on an account that was always paid on time and been paid in full many times!

 

It's Greed on a major scale, IMHO and that is why we are fighting back.

 

It is a concern though, if reconstituted agreements are being accepted, then we are all stuffed anyway and await our turn in court!

 

In this instance an agreed set of terms and conditions would show you if you agreed to let them rise the interest in this way and what notice would be needed. It would be for you to then argue if this was an unfair term in your contract or constituted an unfair relationship.

Without some protection they can write what they want and witness you agreed to it and then the onus is on you to prove otherwise.

 

This of course is for the site team to decide upon.

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I hope this works

 

Please please please do not follow the advice on this thread, it is no longer relevent and is dangerous to follow on the basis of the failure of Mr Kneale v Barclays Bank plc

 

Kneale v Barclays Bank Plc (t/a Barclaycard) [2010] EWHC 1900 (Comm) (23 July 2010)

 

please take legal advice before using CPR 31.16 it is unsafe,

 

I have been trying to get this brought to users attention since i was removed from the team, so please please please DO NOT USE CPR 3116 for disclosure of the credit agreement without legal advice

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Paul will be writing a detailed piece giving his view on why the Kneale case failed, what has to happen next and the requirements for a 31.16 application post kneale

 

From what I read it is almost as if the respondent was asking the appellant to provide the evidence with which the respondent would hang the appellant.

 

Is it not a long established tenet of law that you cannot be forced to give evidence that would incriminate yourself?

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I hope this works

 

Please please please do not follow the advice on this thread, it is no longer relevent and is dangerous to follow on the basis of the failure of Mr Kneale v Barclays Bank plc

 

Kneale v Barclays Bank Plc (t/a Barclaycard) [2010] EWHC 1900 (Comm) (23 July 2010)

 

please take legal advice before using CPR 31.16 it is unsafe,

 

I have been trying to get this brought to users attention since i was removed from the team, so please please please DO NOT USE CPR 3116 for disclosure of the credit agreement without legal advice

 

This thread has over 2000 posts in it, started from the premise that CPR 31.16 should be used if you wanted to get hold of the signed agreement. I and a few others were dubious about the merits of this at the time and said so, as you are effectively putting yourself in the position of agitator/claimant, but how many CAGers followed that advice and put themselves in the poo? [there may of been some clear successes though I'm not aware of any- if there are, no doubt I will be put right :)]

 

And now this. I suppose to be fair to PT he only outlined the possibilities of the technique and the bottom line is that every poster is their own agent in deciding what to do with their own circumstances, and how you use the range of advice on offer, but the fact is PT was [and still is to some of course] an authoritative voice on here and his advice was acted on accordingly by quite a few posters it seems, with at least one disasterous result.

 

To be honest I don't know what to make of it all. What appears clear though is that some reputations have taken a serious knock over this :-(

Edited by SkemDosser
typo!!
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i think you will find that at no time did PT ever suggest that the 31.16 was used as a "fishing excercise"

 

i doubt that ANYONE on the forum has come a cropper by following his advise on this subject

 

those that might have run into difficulties- i expect- were those who only half understood the legal mechanics behind the legistlation

 

there are, to my mind two types of cagger

 

those who try to learn as much as they can about what they are being told- and this involves MANY hours of research

 

and those who just want sometime to give them "soundbites" that they can quote to the creditor or court- without much of an idea of what it actually means

 

it is the second type of cagger - i suspect- that would come a cropper by not fully understanding CPR31.16

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i will answer this as it is clearly questioning me

 

So,

 

Pre action discovery has always been an option for seeking documents you need to bring a claim, thats why its there of course.

 

The judge of the first instance agreed and allowed Mr Kneale disclosure and awarded costs against Barclays who appealled and won

 

Now then

 

What about business bank charges claims? are all the sites wrong because they advocated claiming back bank charges on business accounts and then the court goes and declares charges arent penalties?

 

No, i do not accept that this criticisim would be fair or warranted in those circumstances.

 

Nor do i think it is fair that i am labled as being in the wrong for promoting a way forward,

 

The problem is that Kneale confirmed the approach of Waksman QC as being correct, in that there needs to be more than just a fishing trip, i did make that clear in the first posts , that you need to have grounds more than just saying that you want to see the agreement. That is important and has been confirmed by the Kneale judgment.

 

Pre action disclosure is still available, but people will need something more concrete than just wanting the agreement, they will need to give a positive assertion as to what they thought was wrong with the agreement and why they need the original to succeed and also there is a clear costs implication too.

 

PT signing off

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Its just shows they are human and subject to the same pressures we all are...best not to take sides other then the side of reason as this is what the DCAs want..

 

Site team could start by not screening out the other sites name

Live Life-Debt Free

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....his advice was acted on accordingly by quite a few posters it seems, with at least one disasterous result.

Who is the one 'disastrous result' that acted on PT's advice? To my knowledge, Kneale went via a CMC and was probably not a CAGGER, so what disaster are you reffering to?

 

You will note, as has already been commented on here previously, that the Kneale case was VERY poorly particularised and was heard by a judge that in my view is something of a pro-creditor activist judge.

 

I still wonder why a County Court case from Chester was appealed to a High Court in London (where Flaux sits) as opposed to the Manchester High Court where Waksman is based. May not be as trivial or innocent as it appears.

Edited by bustthematrix

The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out! :eek:

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:confused:

Until the higher courts rule on these documents it is in our interest to gather as many agreements as we can and make them available to compare against what the bank states.

They have. Recons are clearly no more than hearsay evidence. People just need to be really sharp on exactly how to defend against testimony/evidence based on recons. Also, think how wide the door for abuse is with recons? It's huge. As I've already said, it's not so much that people disgaree with lenders on the specific details of T&C's, it's that debtors are sure that 99% of pre- April 2007 consumer credit in issuance are based on duff non-compliant agreements which should really, under the CCA be treated as gifts and written off.

 

I do not see why the banks should be treated as the enemy

That's because they are. They lie through their teeth - all the time. They do it so well and have been doing it so long they even forget that they are lying!!! They actually believe their own lies and expect everyone else to.

There was supposed to be a 'credit crunch' on yet...

The UK's biggest bank HSBC has reported pre-tax profits of $11.1bn (£7bn) for the first six months of 2010 - more than double its profits for the same time last year.

 

Don't mean to offend if anyone here works for HSBC or any of it's subs (or maybe you just own shares or whatever) but let's not kid ourselves as to who's playing who...

The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out! :eek:

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aside from all the curent discussion, can i ask, how does the Kneale case affect a person with a card debt where there appears to be no copy of a cca agreeement available? Does it mean that the debt is now enforceable irrespective of wether or not a valid cca is provided? hope i'm not being thick as i'm afraid i'm one of the second types of 'soundbite' caggers described by diddydicky! thanks BAB

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aside from all the curent discussion, can i ask, how does the Kneale case affect a person with a card debt where there appears to be no copy of a cca agreeement available? Does it mean that the debt is now enforceable irrespective of wether or not a valid cca is provided? hope i'm not being thick as i'm afraid i'm one of the second types of 'soundbite' caggers described by diddydicky! thanks BAB

 

Agreed, this has to be the focus for discussion.

The Story So Far...

 

Barclaycard - Fingers Vs Barclaycard

Egg - Egg Credit Card CCA Agreement - help

Halifax - Halifax Credit card CCA

IF - CCA received

Lloyds - Lloyds CCA

MBNA-CCA received, challening

Virgin - Virgin Card CCA May 2006 - Help Required

 

OH Barccard - 2 s78 letters, on 2nd cpr

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Kneale case affect a person with a card debt where there appears to be no copy of a cca agreeement available? Does it mean that the debt is now enforceable irrespective of wether or not a valid cca is provided?

 

Kneale was to do with how a request under CPR31.16 for an exact copy of an agreement & its T&Cs should be enforced, not whether an agreement could be enforced (i.e. debt enforcement) without the original being shown to the court.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Kneale was to do with how a request under CPR31.16 for an exact copy of an agreement & its T&Cs should be enforced, not whether an agreement could be enforced (i.e. debt enforcement) without the original being shown to the court.

 

actually, what i meant was, where a re-constituted agreement is provided in place of an original. thanks bab

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Kneale was a more offensive approach rather than defensive and being claimant has very important implications for 'burden of proof' requirements. As you may know, it is he who alleges (the Claimant) that must bring proof of his claims.

 

In most CCA actions, especially those concerning CAGgers, creditors are the claimants and the debtors the defendants.

 

Kneale was the Claimant and was trying to get the court to order disclosure of the original executed agreement under CPR 31.16 because he 'suspected' it was IEA (Ireedemably Unenforceable Agreement). This was following repeated s78 requests for the executed agreement with of course the creditor, had failed to properly fulfill.

 

Whilst the County Court Judge had effectively accepted this logic and made the order, the High Court Judge did not agree and ruled against Kneale.

The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out! :eek:

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aside from all the curent discussion, can i ask, how does the Kneale case affect a person with a card debt where there appears to be no copy of a cca agreeement available?

It doesn't really. It only becomes relevant if YOU decide you want to compel production of the original and if it can't be produced, have the agreement declared as IEA.

Does it mean that the debt is now enforceable irrespective of wether or not a valid cca is provided?

Definitely not but if a lender/DCA brings a court action on the back of a recon, the recon must be robustly refuted as hearsay evidence only because that's exactly what it is.

hope i'm not being thick as i'm afraid i'm one of the second types of 'soundbite' caggers described by diddydicky! Well, just keep reading and you may gain an appetite for some of the legal issues

thanks BAB

HTH

The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out! :eek:

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This thread has over 2000 posts in it, started from the premise that CPR 31.16 should be used if you wanted to get hold of the signed agreement. I and a few others were dubious about the merits of this at the time and said so, as you are effectively putting yourself in the position of agitator/claimant, but how many CAGers followed that advice and put themselves in the poo? [there may of been some clear successes though I'm not aware of any- if there are, no doubt I will be put right :)]

 

And now this. I suppose to be fair to PT he only outlined the possibilities of the technique and the bottom line is that every poster is their own agent in deciding what to do with their own circumstances, and how you use the range of advice on offer, but the fact is PT was [and still is to some of course] an authoritative voice on here and his advice was acted on accordingly by quite a few posters it seems, with at least one disasterous result.

 

To be honest I don't know what to make of it all. What appears clear though is that some reputations have taken a serious knock over this :-(

 

This has always been my problem.

 

It is no use calling yoursellf a solicitor and then putting a diisclaimer under your name people are just going to presume you know what you are talking about

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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This has always been my problem.

 

It is no use calling yoursellf a solicitor and then putting a diisclaimer under your name people are just going to presume you know what you are talking about

 

Peter

 

Hmm IMO he did know what he was talking about, as the first judge agreed with the claimant... trouble is the supporting evidence wasnt there when appealed in front of an alleged pro-creditor judge and the case was dismissed...

 

PT put plenty of warnings in the first couple of posts on what kind of evidence would be needed and what you have to show. The warnings are still there for all to see.

 

S.

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Hmm IMO he did know what he was talking about, as the first judge agreed with the claimant... trouble is the supporting evidence wasnt there when appealed in front of an alleged pro-creditor judge and the case was dismissed...

 

PT put plenty of warnings in the first couple of posts on what kind of evidence would be needed and what you have to show. The warnings are still there for all to see.

 

S.

 

Hi

You miss my point.

 

Everyone is entitled to an opiniion on here, but it must always be treated to adegree of scrutiny by other posters.

Because of the nature of PTs posts any dissagreement is treated with abuse.

 

I showed this thread to a friend of mine who is a solicitor when it first came out, he said a solicitor would have to be mad to risk this.

I kept my mouth shut because of the stick I got from questioning his logic on other threads.

Perhaps I should have bit the bullet.

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi

You miss my point.

 

Everyone is entitled to an opiniion on here, but it must always be treated to adegree of scrutiny by other posters.

Because of the nature of PTs posts any dissagreement is treated with abuse.

 

I showed this thread to a friend of mine who is a solicitor when it first came out, he said a solicitor would have to be mad to risk this.

I kept my mouth shut because of the stick I got from questioning his logic on other threads.

Perhaps I should have bit the bullet.

Peter

 

 

Implicit in your statement is that pt2537 is a solicitor...I do not remember pt2537 ever expressly stating that on this thread nor on any other....

 

Whilst I acknowledege your point as to healthy debate ultimately it depends on preparation and understanding of the case law...lawyers have access to this we dont!

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aside from all the curent discussion, can i ask, how does the Kneale case affect a person with a card debt where there appears to be no copy of a cca agreeement available? Does it mean that the debt is now enforceable irrespective of wether or not a valid cca is provided? hope i'm not being thick as i'm afraid i'm one of the second types of 'soundbite' caggers described by diddydicky! thanks BAB

 

the kneale case effects simply - applications made under CPR31.16 pre litigation

 

it has long been held that this cannot be used as a "fishing excercise" and this was pointed out at the outset by PT

 

nor is a simple "suspicion" sufficient. since clearly that would circumvent the former comment.

 

 

kneale, who as far as i am aware was not a cagger (to my knowledge) used a CMC and initially won his argument(and costs) was knocked back by an appeal court judge

 

we cannot all applaud the appeal court judges when they knock back the creditors but then accuse them of being in the creditors pockets when they knock back one of the debtors victories

 

all PT is saying now is that you must have a well constructed case when using CPR31.16 as this ruling has "tightened up" the requirement to ensure that it is not seen as a fishing excercise or "punt" as the judge described it- and that in his opinion- this might now be beyond the remit of a cagger and should be done with legal advice

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This is proving a nightmare for caggers.

 

Is there now in place any mechanism to find out if a Creditor has kept your original agreement when you disagree with the terms they state apply or believe what they have shown you is a forgery?

 

How do we insist on our right to see the original agreement when court proceedings have been issued against us and the county court judge seems inclined to accept a 'reconstituted' agreement will do? i.e. what legislation and case law should we be researching to avoid soundbites?

 

What I believe is neccassary here is a system like Scotland where the Claimant has to produce the agreement on issuing of proceedings where money is claimed pursuant to an agreement. I have wrote to my mp on this issue and he has submitted this to the Secretary of State for Justice for review. I would urge other caggers to do the same.

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