Tribunal - Proving employment

[sinussoother]

Well, hello there. This is my first post & I am in a slight pickle!

 

It is quite a long pickle, so if you can read it all the way through & any one could give me some ideas, I would be very grateful indeed.

 

Claimant - Me

1st Respondent - Co A

2nd Respondent - Co B

3rd Respondent - Co C (Same ompany as B, C is name change. In liquidation.)

 

Commenced working for Company B, based in offices of company A. Company B although on paper is owned by 1 director, is actually owned and funded by some way by Company A. In 1st week of work, director of Company B tells me that this is the case.

 

First months salary paid out of Company A's bank account. All requests to Company B are deferred to company A.

 

Work on Company A email, made to sign Company A Employee Handbook etc. Made to fill in forms for Company A, nothing in Company B.

 

In month 8 of employment, an occurrence takes place that changes my status to disabled. In an informal discussion with Director of Company B whilst on sick leave, director says that company A is giving me 2 months to decide what I want to do, stay or go. This is only a very short time after disability, I say that at this point, I don't want stress, but that could change in 2 months time. Director phones Company A on this evening and Company A sends out an email to directors of A & B stating that with immediate effect they are to employ someone in this position, using a 3rd party as an assistant & further employ another as another. No mention of me.

 

I am aware that there is something taking place and mention to medical practitioners that Company A is trying to get rid of me. (Although I am employed by Company B on paper, I am actually employed by Company A)

 

I have access to email of director as we need to share certain documents, an email comes through that mentions all of this, I keep a copy and discuss with director that actually, I want my own job, why are they looking for someone for this role. I return to work to early as I am aware they are doing this, fearful of losing my job.

 

No procedures are followed, no work place risk assessment is done. I am removed off things as I am now a liability. I request amendments to my working, simple, minor things, in fact, just one chang, that wouldn't have cost anything. I am deferred to Company A as they are in charge. For almost 4 months I request this small change.

 

In yet another informal discussion I am told they are looking for this person to take over. No internal advertising or notification has taken place. I request that I be considered for my own position. I am told to contact person at Company A and tell them this. I do, I am never responded to.

 

Eventually, 3 months after the occurence that changes my status I am told that HR Director of Company A wants a meeting with me. They only tell me on the day that this is happening, then it never takes place. In all these months, I make Med Practiioners aware that this is all taking place.

 

Company A director comes in, we meet & for the first time discuss the occurence & it is said that my request has finally been granted. This however is not done. Company A director says that as I may be aware they are replacing me with someone with a degree & that my posistion is secure, in fact, they are now going to change my contract over to Company A with continuation of service.

 

Eventually, after mauch discrimination, failure to follow correct procedure, informal discussions, formal discussions, I give in a grievance. The very next day, Company A decides to put Company B into liquidation & I get the sack. sorry, made redundant with immediate effect. In this meeting, Director of Company B and Director of Company A. I say that I am actually employed by company A and director of company A says, I decide who works in this company and you dont.

 

So. A shortened version of the long pickle. We had a case amangement hearing, in which Company A was represented, they are contesting that I wasn't employed by them. A Pretrial hearing has ben set & a full hearing.

 

The problem is, unless I can prove that I was in effect employed by Company A, I am going to lose.

 

I need to submit my statement soon, as well as any evidentiary documents. I have to request evedentiary documents from them, and in order to get through pretrial in my favour, I somehow have prove this with documents.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks!

[tiglet]

Bump

[Nemesis_Drake]

Did you keep a record of all these occurrences? Have you a union to contact?

 

It sounds like you're dealing with a dishonest bunch (just my opinion)

[sinussoother]

I have a record of most incidents. I have copies of emails.

 

I am trying to figure out a way to prove that even though on paper I was 'contracted' to Company B, Company A was actually my employer.

[tiglet]

There is one way I thought of - ring the Inland Revenue and find out who paid your NI employer's contributions.

[sinussoother]

Bloody Marvelous!

[sinussoother]

Not so marvellous, can't get that info

[tiglet]

What does it say on your P60 or P45?

[sinussoother]

LOL! I haven't even received either of those from them. I am busy trying to find out who original directors of the company are.

[tiglet]

You should have received a P60 in April - can you ask IR for a copy if the employer has not provided one?

[sinussoother]

I still have a temporary NI number, I have never been able to get through on the registration number. They say they can't give me anything until I get that.

 

That is going to take some time. They sacked me in February, haven't had anything from them since.

[sinussoother]

What if Company A has said, in a Case Management Hearing that they are merely clients of Company B and that the Directors of Company A have nothing to do with the running of Company B? What if I find that in fact one of the directors of Company A is a member of Company B and that Directors of Company A set up Company B then resigned as Directors of B?

 

Will this be enough to illustrate to Tribunal that Directorships were merely a paper trail and that in effect, I was in fact employed by company A and took instruction and that in fact, having them as first respondent is indeed correct?

[tiglet]

Well, it certainly sounds suspicious to me.

 

You could always phone them and ask for your P45 because you need it for benefit purposes. You are entitled to it by law and they cannot refuse you.

 

Keep trying to get your permanent number - it may well help your case.

[sinussoother]

Thanks for that. I have the number, I am going to try get it sorted out. I don't want to ask them for anything.

 

What happens if a respondent, in a case management hearing, tells an untruth, and I through some research, can prove that this is an untruth, how does that help my case, and can anything happen to them?

[Nemesis_Drake]

I still have a temporary NI number, I have never been able to get through on the registration number. They say they can't give me anything until I get that.

 

That is going to take some time. They sacked me in February, haven't had anything from them since.

A temporary NI number? Are you mistaking that with a BR Tax code? ie emergency tax!

 

I'm struggling to calculate how long your term of employment has been...Do you have a contract of employment?

 

Wo betide them if they discriminate on grounds of disability!!!

[sinussoother]

Hi Nemesis Drake.

 

Yes, I had to apply for an NI Number being foreign. With the new system, the number stays busy, or you get put on hold for 30 minutes. I go through phases of trying again, but then get caught up in life, work, those things. So, working off that temporary number for now.

 

I was employed by them for exactly 1 year and 17 days.

 

My grievance took into account a number of discrimination issues, which included Disability Discrimination....I was told that I couldn't go on site anymore as I had become a liability to the company, I could get them into a lot of trouble, by falling off a scaffold or down a hole. This was done without a workplace risk assessment or anything.

 

I did have a contract, with Company B which said I was on probation for 3 months, they never updated it, or gave me a letter and neither did they amend it after they decided to breach contract, which I am taking them on as well.

[Nemesis_Drake]

Does the disability affect your ability to work? Common sense having precedent over "Workplace risk assessments...Method statements etc" Would you indeed be a liability to yourself or others?

[sinussoother]

According to who, does it affect my ability?

 

On one hand they say it doesn't, on the other hand, they said it did.

 

Indeed common sense prevailing, it goes with the territory, having to relearn things you have been doing your whole life in one way.

 

Work place risk, methods, etc, all would have identified if this was a problem and would also say whether it was necessary to employ someone else in my position as they did.

 

There are risks involved, but no more say than me walking down Oxford Street in the middle of January Sales or on the 26th December.

[Nemesis_Drake]

According to who, does it affect my ability?

 

On one hand they say it doesn't, on the other hand, they said it did.

 

Indeed common sense prevailing, it goes with the territory, having to relearn things you have been doing your whole life in one way.

 

Work place risk, methods, etc, all would have identified if this was a problem and would also say whether it was necessary to employ someone else in my position as they did.

 

There are risks involved, but no more say than me walking down Oxford Street in the middle of January Sales or on the 26th December.

 

Are you likely to collapse or veer into the road on Boxing day? Blackouts? Sudden bouts of incapacitating dizziness? Hand eye coordination not so good?

[sinussoother]

Are you likely to collapse or veer into the road on Boxing day? - Only if I have been drinking!

 

Blackouts? - Negative

 

Sudden bouts of incapacitating dizziness? - Negative

Hand eye coordination not so good? - Positive. Problem with leaning down to get something out of my draw, I can't judge the distance.

 

'Allegedly' my sight good enough to see on a 17" monitor & to flip through documents, but not good enough to project manage a refurbishment project, possible failure to see a 7ft wide hole surrounded by herris fencing & signage. It would seem that the ability to walk correctly as I inspected roof works from a scaffold.

 

Apologies for my sarcastic tone, it is not aimed at your comments, rather at the ridiculousness of the situation.

 

All of a sudden, my abilities were brought into question, as was the fact I didn't have a degree. Getting kicked in the teeth is not my favourite of past times, and now they are trying to get out of it, it makes me even more frustrated!

[Nemesis_Drake]

No worries...You'd have to mention me by name for it to be personal

 

My thoughts now are why don't/didn't they offer you a different position within the company? Do you think they are using the disability as an excuse?

 

Myself I've been off work for 5 weeks and my boss hasn't helped me at all.......The perils of being a company director

[sinussoother]

I reckon you should have a stern word with your boss!

 

As I said, it's quite a long pickle & there are many points and indeed many instances during the course of my employment with them that come to the fore, includng being told that I need to keep my options open, being threatened that I could lose my job if I was averse to moving to a town with not even a bus route because they needed to justify signing a 5 year lease for a project that never worked, being pushed to answer at the very minute I was told.

 

Being constantly undermined because my boss was a man & he had been in the business for 25 years, because I was 'young', being told that I had to be careful who I was open about being gay with. And then constant reference to my new found disability. It all became too much & when they initimated what they intended to do with me & being told the day before I handed in my grievance that I better start looking for a job, well, that day I was told my job was secure & not, I decided the next day to hand in my grievance.

 

The rest as they say is history.....!

[sinussoother]

What makes this difficult is trying to put a figure on how much I have lost in earnings & future earnings, how on earth am I meant to quantify what this has done? What it has cost me? What it will cost me?

[tiglet]

Sorry, they told you you had to be careful who you were open about being gay with? Why? What the hell has that got to do with anything?

 

If someone had a go at you for being gay, YOU would have a case against them, not the other way around.

 

I think you should post again, giving all of the details, such as comments about being gay, as there may be more help available to you.

[sinussoother]

Thanks tiglet, I will repost, with a few more details. I know I am probably being paranoid, them checking, but heyho. I will give it a try!