Campervan bought from dealer and the engine has fallen out...!

[tj2008]

Hi all,

 

This is my first post and I'm already relieved to have found somewhere that gives some information on all of this sort of stuff. OK, long and short of it;

 

Bought a campervan on the 20th Feb from a dealer (operates from his home address but has a limited company and is VAT registered) who seemed like a reasonable guy.

 

Paid £5,500 for a 1989 camper (hi top) which seemed in decent nick (drove ok - no oil or water leaks, no high temperature or signs of head gasket having blown etc). Car came with 12 months MOT and they fixed a few things that I pointed out when I first looked at the car (i.e. loose pipe, extra support for exhaust etc). I have a receipt for the full amount on a Used Car Invoice.

 

Campers are generally quite old and need some work doing on them, so I've replaced the odd thing to make it better and ready for a proposed 4 month trip around Europe (which I made it clear to the dealer that this is what it was going to be used for).

 

In the last 3 weeks the following has happened;

 

1. Vaccum pump stopped working (drives the brakes - £20 from scrap yard)

2. Fuel pump started to leak (£120 from scrap yard & £250 labour)

3. Engine mounting sheered, dropping the engine onto the road.

 

I had sorted out 1 & 2 and just saw it as bad luck, but the 3rd happened in Spain, on a motorway. The sump has been damaged (dragged along the floor) and some of the attachments into the engine have sheered.

 

The Spanish garage wouldn't touch it - suggesting a new engine was needed. I have shown photos to a mechanic our family knows and they have said that the vehicle is unfit for purpose due to how a engine conversion was completed (causing the engine to fall onto the road!).

 

I don't really know how to take this forward or if I have any rights. Basically, my girlfriend and I just want to get on with what was supposed to be a 4 month tour of europe before emmigrating. We're stuck back at our parents killing time. Van is due back in the UK next Friday and will be delivered to a garage I have used before for them to taker a look. I had to have it sent here as it was the only way Greenflag were willing to recover me.

 

If anyone could offer any assistance I would be extremely grateful. I have not contacted the dealer as yet and he does not know about the first 2 faults which I have rectified.

 

Tom

[patdavies]

If you do allow the selling dealer the opportunity to rectify the fault, you are likely to be on very dodgy ground when you try to get any repayment of the second garage's costs.

[tj2008]

Thanks for the reply!

 

The car hasn't been worked on by anyone yet. Is the original dealer responsible in any way? With the history of problems and the age of the vehicle, am I in a position to suggest the dealer should fix it or provide a refund?

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

[JonCris]

Despite the age it was sold as 'fit for purpose' & I think it's pretty safe to say it 'wasn't fit for purpose' & as the sellers a dealer then you should be on safe ground to claim a refund & compensation.

 

Personally it's my thinking that if he's prepared to sell a vehicle in such a dangerous condition I wouldn't let him near it. I would simply demand a refund plus compensation

[gwc1000]

I think you are always going to have problems if you choose to drive a vehicle that is twenty years old. Technically it is long past it's sell by date, and cannot be expected to be reliable. As you say these always need some work and always will to keep it on the road. The dealer could not be expected to know that an engine mounting was due to fail in three months. However, I would approach him and ask for the vehicle to be repaired. Normally in these circumstances a compromise is acheived, where both of you pay half of the costs. I would not have the work done elsewhere, as that will be the dealer's "get out of jail" card. Out of interest how many miles has the van done?

[JonCris]

I think you are always going to have problems if you choose to drive a vehicle that is twenty years old. Technically it is long past it's sell by date, and cannot be expected to be reliable. As you say these always need some work and always will to keep it on the road. The dealer could not be expected to know that an engine mounting was due to fail in three months. However, I would approach him and ask for the vehicle to be repaired. Normally in these circumstances a compromise is acheived, where both of you pay half of the costs. I would not have the work done elsewhere, as that will be the dealer's "get out of jail" card. Out of interest how many miles has the van done?

 

 

Wot £5k! for a vehicle that hasn't lasted more than a couple of months & you think he'll have difficulty cos it's 20 year old & the dealer can't be expected to know about the fault. Sorry you couldn't be more wrong

 

Whilst you might be able to argue that if it was a private sale & even that is not a certain defence, in a commercial sale it doesn't matter if the dealer knew about the fault or not it's still his responsibility period!

 

Also camper vans are renowned for being long lived because they tend to be of low mileage & are (normally) coach built to last & that's why a 20 year old vehicle changes hands for as much as £5K!

[gwc1000]

My point is that the dealer could not be expected to know that an engine mounting is going to fail in the next three months. You say that I couldn't be more wrong. Well, lets await the outcome and then decide. Considering the very high quality of the dealer's premises I am assuming the OP is going to get an invitation for sex and travel anyway. That's why a compromise might be the best option.

Anyway, I thought the whole point of owning old classic vehicles is the fun of breaking down and having to continually bodge them to get them home. Personally, nothing less than a four star hotel does it for me.

[JonCris]

Your missing the point it doesn't matter if he knew or not he's still liable & because they spend a considerable amount of their life stationary the dealer should have checked it's condition throughly & not just the bits that can been seen

 

Also a 20 year old camper van is not considered a classic vehicle by fellow campers. It's quite normal for one to be 20 years old

[gwc1000]

Amongst car dealers a 20 year old camper is known as a bucket of ****

 

I feel that it is you that may be missing the point here. ok, the law says when you buy from a dealer "blah blah blah" but remember this is a bod dealing from his front garden, and someone who has taken the trouble to set up a limited company. In reality getting a result here might be tricky. That's why I would go for the compromise option.

[JonCris]

Car dealers perhaps but then car dealers consider any vehicle over 5 years a bucket of s**t Specialist camper van dealers do not

 

& the fact the guy has set up a limited company is actually good for the buyer

[gwc1000]

 

& the fact the guy has set up a limited company is actually good for the buyer

 

In what way? So he can set up a new company next week?

[JonCris]

Because his trading address is probably his home Also it's much easier to enforce an SD rather than go to county court

[gwc1000]

Well, I wish the OP the best of luck.

[tj2008]

Hi all,

 

so latest is that a garage has confirmed that the original install (seems to be about 55,000 miles ago) is a bad one. The van has continually had the same engine mounting problems (review of additional paperwork that came with van - I can see the problem now but didn't have a clue before!) since 1998. The previous owner (not the dealer that he sold it to who subsequently sold it to me) had the van worked on 6 or 7 times with various welding etc.

 

Long and short - new engine at approx £1500 to £2000.

 

Called the dealer who sold it and he said he would have a look, but at my cost (i.e. my cost to get it to him in Plymouth - £100). He said that the engine mounting bolts are NOT something he could have forseen and therefore is not something he would be prepared to pay for.

 

The only real option I see I have is possibly to go for a full refund and pass the whole issue to the dealer - can you let me know if I have a leg to stand on and how I would do this???

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

[JonCris]

tj Foreseeable or not, engine mountings or not & no matter what he claims he's still liable for the vehicles he sells, plus any additional costs incurred by you as a result of that failure. Does he expect his customers to accept liability for his faulty vehicles if so he's on a hiding to nothing

 

Heres a thought he claims it was unforeseeable really! if you found the evidence already in the paper work why didn't he

 

I recommend contacting either TS or a solicitor

[Conniff]

You should listen to what JC is saying tj.

 

It matters not which part is the problem. If that were the case, any engine faults would be up to the purchaser as the dealer can't see inside the engine so could not forsee a problem there.

 

You should drop a letter so you have something in black and white, and ask him if he is willing to take responsibility and do a permanent repair or give you a full refund. On receipt of his reply you can then decide on what course of action to take.

[tj2008]

Guys,

 

Thanks for all your advice. We have contacted TS today and they have suggested it is 'fair and reasonable' for us to allow the dealer to inspect the vehicle. I am going to arrange to take it to him today/tomorrow (Bristol to Plymouth). They suggest that he could be made to pay for this or at least part (until we know who's responsibility it is).

 

I am planning to take it down so we can get the ball moving and to show that I am being 'reasonable'. I have no real issue with this. However, there is nothing in writing between the two of us recording the issue or that I will take it to him. Do I need to cover myself with a letter today and get it sent recorded, to arrive tomorrow, stating something like....

 

We have agreed that the vehicle is to be inspected by yourself at xxxx on xxxx and that after this inspection, the next steps will be discussed and reviewed etc etc.

 

I would put in there what had happened so far, the telephone conversations we have already had and also the receipts from the previous owner showing this same problem.

 

What do you think - too aggresive or worth doing to cover my back now or after they have looked at it???

 

Tom

[JonCris]

Bloody TS If that's their advice to you I really am fed up reading about such crap.

 

The carry the badge of an official body meant to protect the consumer but most of them have no understanding of the laws they are supposed to enforce. Before giving advice they should be forced to admit this. In other words their 'advice' should come with a disclaimer

 

Be reasonable! what the hell does that mean this guy sold you a motor in which the engine dropped out when you where on holiday abroad for gawds sake.

 

He's responsible no one else, partially or otherwise, unless he can PROVE you drove over an unsuitable surface strewn with rocks which damaged the engine mounts which is hardly likely & even if you did impossible now to prove

 

If that's their advice ignore them. Your entitled to rescind the agreement & get your money back or if you choose to have a satisfactory repair at no cost whatsoever to you ......... and no matter which course you choose also any and all of your costs reimbursed including those incurred abroad

 

Write tell him your bringing it for him to repair at his expense or alternatively a full refund plus your costs to date. Give him 7 days to respond BEFORE setting of & just to ensure he knows the score telephone him to confirm the arrangement. If he balks then tell him of your intention to report him & to issue civil proceedings to recover your money.

 

Best to have the argument before you set of rather than when you get there & feel more obliged to accept any other offer made

[raydetinu]

Yep agree that dealer is responsible, he should of checked problem ( history was there ) before selling.

Ask for full refund including out of pocket monies, via letter before action, then take to court, if he does not pay up with 14 days.

You can stlill take it back to him, but beware he may tamper with it if you leave it. Take lots of photos.

[gwc1000]

A view from the other side:

This van has had an engine fitted incorrectly ten years ago. A private individual has driven 55000 miles in it since, and has had problems with it over the years, so sold it to an unsuspecting dealer. Lo and behold instantly the dealer is the villain. Now you are holding him responsible for a repair carried out ten years previous. I assume no one on here holds the original owner at fault?

In my view and experience private owners when selling to the trade lie and cheat and consider it perfectly ok to stick a sh***ed vehicle up the dealer's waistcoat. The amount of times I have valued a part ex and when it comes in a few days later there is a cluster of wires where the CD player used to be, those nice shiny alloys have suddenly become steel, and the spare wheel no longer exists. Nowadays I refuse the car and cancel the deal.

You should remember there are always two sides to every story.

[raydetinu]

There is no other side, the dealer is in it to sell cars/vans to make a profit!! He should of checked it out before he purchased it, he cant just pass the faults on, he should of made sure it was roadworthy.

Why do you think there is a difference between what a dealer will pay for a car,auction or private and what he will later sell it for. Obviously some repairs, mot etc. and a profit. If gets wrong then he must take the hit not the poor bloke that bought it of him in good faith. thats what the SOGA and trading standards are for.

[gwc1000]

There is no other side, the dealer is in it to sell cars/vans to make a profit!! He should of checked it out before he purchased it, he cant just pass the faults on, he should of made sure it was roadworthy.

Why do you think there is a difference between what a dealer will pay for a car,auction or private and what he will later sell it for. Obviously some repairs, mot etc. and a profit. If gets wrong then he must take the hit not the poor bloke that bought it of him in good faith. thats what the SOGA and trading standards are for.

As I suspected. When the private individual sold the van to the dealer knowing it had a ten year history of a particular problem, the private is blameless. Naturally it is the dealer's fault.

If you are seriously suggesting the dealer should have known an engine mounting is going to fail months after a sale, then I am afraid I have to disagree with you.

[Conniff]

Having read gwc post, I have just had another read through the thread.

 

If the engine mounting to subframe or chassis point (which I believe is what we are talking about) was in an advanced state of decay around the mounting such that it could be seen, then the MoT examiner should have issued an advisory.

It is not an MoT failure unless it is obvious and makes the vehicle dangerous.

 

If the state of decay was not exposed outside the footprint of the engine mount meaning that it could not be seen, then the MoT examiner could not have been reasonably expected to have picked it up and I don't think the dealer / seller could have been expected to have noticed it either.

 

I would like to recind my past comment where I agreed that point.

 

Do you have an MoT advisory for the Campervan tj ? if not go to the vosa site and have a look to see if one was issued and not passed over to you.

[JonCris]

tj Have it inspected by the RAC or AA BEFORE you return it

 

gwc none of what you say has any relevance whatsoever.

 

The dealer is the dealer & the buyer is the buyer. The dealer sells a faulty product & in this case seriously faulty then he's liable....period not the previous owner just him........ As for the previous owner how do we know the dealer didn't already know about the engine work undertaken by that owner.

 

It was in the paperwork & it would be a strange, or incompetent, dealer who bought a vehicle WITHOUT checking the paperwork. He probably did & purchased cheap selling it on hoping it would survive long enough so he could repudiate any liability

 

Also as this engine fell out whilst being driven along a main road in France this dealer is very lucky not to be facing charges of criminal negligence or even worse. My advice to him would be to put up then shut up

[JonCris]

As I suspected. When the private individual sold the van to the dealer knowing it had a ten year history of a particular problem, the private is blameless. Naturally it is the dealer's fault.

If you are seriously suggesting the dealer should have known an engine mounting is going to fail months after a sale, then I am afraid I have to disagree with you.

 

It doesn't matter if he knew or not the dealer is still liable