Gearbox failure 2nd hand car. Warranty won't pay out

[cdb]

Hello. My son bought a used Seat Ibiza (Y reg) from an independant Citroen dealer on 8th Feb this year. Last Thursday the gearbox failed (dumped it's oil and locked up). I'm waiting to go and see the gearbox for myself to confirm what the damage is, but apparently 2nd gear has gone (as in teeth missing) and there may be a hole in the gearcase. The warranty engineer has refused the claim saying it's down to a worn bearing and so wear and tear. That will save them a couple of thousand in parts and labour.

 

If the above damage is true then I don't see how on earth a worn bearing can cause it. I have done some searching on the Net and apparantly VW/Seat/Audi gearboxes of this age have a problem with the rivets holding the diff together which can cause the exact problem described above. VW Gearbox Failure

 

Questions for now, until I can confirm the damage.

 

1) Does the SOGA cover my son for a used cars like it would a new car.

2) Could he reject the car due to this major fault or is it too late.

 

When I go to see the gearbox what would you suggest I do? I plan on taking a camera to photograph the damage in case it goes to the small claims court. Also, depending what I find, plan to tell them to get the warranty guy back to reassess the damage (as it's obviously not wear and tear) or tell them to repair it themselves at their cost or I (my son) will see them in the small claims court.

I was an aircraft mechanic in the RAF for 15years and a work on my own cars as much as I can, so I'm not exactly green when it comes to car mechanics and have a good engineering background. (but I'm not a qualified professional either,unless it can do mach 2 lol) So I will have an idea wether the damage is wear and tear or due to mechanical failure of the diff or some other component.

[cdb]

Having seen the damage, I think I'm going to struggle not to agree with their engineer.

 

The differential side bearing has totally disintergrated into lots of small bits as if it's been run for a long time while knackered.

[Conniff]

The differential side bearing has totally disintergrated into lots of small bits as if it's been run for a long time while knackered.

 

So it is NOT wear and tear, it is bearing failure.

That may sound like a play on words, but being an engineer yourself you will understand what I am saying.

 

It would not require to be run 'knackered' or dry to fail, it can fail because one of the bearings has lost it's case hardening or the race has.

To say it is wear and tear would need the bearing intact for inspection and if I read right, the bearing has shattered.

 

Is this a purchased warranty cdb?

[cdb]

There wasn't alot of the bearing left, just little pieces in the box.

 

I see what you're saying.

 

They are saying it had to be driven with the car in that condition for a while for it to have got to that state. If my son had stopped straight away they may have paid out. But not being an engineer, how does my son know what to listen out for and that's even if he could hear it over the stereo.

 

It was a warranty sold at a cost of around £2-300 (I've forgot) by the dealer. The warranty is for another company, not the dealer we bought the car off.

[Ladidi]

Can you not argue with them they are selling on goods not good for the road and that in such a short space of time someone should have picked up that the gear box had a fault before the sale took place.

 

Raise the issue, what if my son had family or a child in the ehicle and they were on a motorway travelling at speed and it packed in causing themt o have an accident.

 

Tell them he bought the vehicle in good faith and expected it to be of road worthy condition and last a lot longer than less then 3 months!!!

 

Dont they somekind of vehicle inspection before sale? Question them how it passed to be sold knowing that the gear box would not last much longer?

Also raise the question as to how they would feel to being ripped off, as a reputable company that is exactly what they have done to your son, demand a manager and be reasonable if not shout as loud as you like in front of prospective customers.

I`m sure they wouldn't want you scare off potential clients which gives them their bread and butter so to speak

[Conniff]

Ask for a full copy of the engineers report.

[poppynurse]

I had a similar situation a few years ago with a Frontera gearbox two months after purchase (had a couple of other issues as well), the company wouldn't repair it so I got another garage to do it. I went to small claims using the sale of goods act and was awarded the full cost of having it put right (although they refused my claim for the alternator as they put this down to wear and tear).

[sharkie]

Poppynurse

 

You don't mention if your Frontera was sold with a warranty or not.

[raydetinu]

Defo not wear and tear, and I pressume average sort of mileage. If this was wear and tear they would all be failing at that age and mileage?

Stick to your guns with warranty provider, they never want to pay and will wriggle, many are not worth paying extra for, but ok if given free with the car. threaten to sue garage if warranty does not pay, this may get garage to put pressure on warranty provider. future business etc.

[cdb]

My son has decided he wants to reject the car. Can he do this under the SOGA? If so, how does he do it. Just tell the garage he wants to reject it, then wait for them to say you can't and then take them to the small claims court?

 

He's trying to arrange a meeting with the boss of the garage on Friday. The only thing I can think of is to try and argue that it's not a normal wear and tear bearing failure- that would be a noisy bearing with some play in it, not a total break up of the outer bearing race. I wouldn't expect normal bearing wear and tear to be covered by the warranty anyway.

Also, they sold the car at top book price and without any service history (we didn't realise until we got home and found no service details with it) we were assured it was dealer serviced all it's life tho. The warranty company details say they'll want to see the full service history, so I doubt they'd pay out anyway.

[cdb]

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 states that, if you can show the goods to be faulty, not fit for their purpose or misdescribed, you have, for a short time after purchase, a right to reject them and get a refund of the purchase price

 

How long is this short time? The car as above is a Seat Ibiza 1.4s low milage- 35800, £3200 paid.

[Conniff]

Time to decide if you are going after the insurance company or the seller.

 

I don't think two months will be classed as a 'short time', but the soga will still apply as the vehicle should last longer than 35,000 miles from new, (and in any case, longer than 2 months) and was obviously not of merchantable quality.

 

You bought this car on the salesmans assurance and with the understanding that it had full dealer service history, so where is the service book that qualified him to give that statement. If there is no service book then it was just a statement that he made up at the time to help clinch the sale.

 

This is definately NOT fair wear and tear, so if you go after the dealer and they agree after you have mentioned the soga and service record etc then you must also (once they have agreed) ask for a reimbursment of the insurance fee you paid.

 

I would also ask the insurance company what qualifications the inspecting engineer has, and I don't mean the word of some customer service person.

[cdb]

I can't honestly say wether he said it had a full service history or not. I'm not even sure I asked. You just assume a dealer will only sell cars with a full service history, especially if you are paying top dealer prices.

 

He is an independant Citroen dealer, not just some back street 2nd hand car dealer.

 

I will try and push the milage issue in that a gearbox should not fail in that mileage. Seat warranty covers them for 60000miles, but unfortunately only 3 years,so had the car been young enough, the dealer would have had to cover it.

[Conniff]

Ask again if they are willing to pay for the repair, if the answer is still no, then you need to send the garage and the warranty insurance company a letter before action.

 

Get a quote for the repair from another reputable garage and send that with a letter telling them (both) that if they don't do the repair then you will take it to another garage and sue them for the bill.

 

Make sure you mention 'Bearing Failure'.