Help Please re: CCA decision

[citizenB]

Hello Mrs Z, I hope Mr Z has a good day at his new job .

[Misterzeus]

Hi citizenB, Yes, Mr Z had a good first day, tired but thankful he has been given the chance at the ripe old age of 52!! Thank you for asking

[citizenB]

Hi citizenB, Yes, Mr Z had a good first day, tired but thankful he has been given the chance at the ripe old age of 52!! Thank you for asking

 

Thats good.

[Misterzeus]

Hello, Mrs Z here again! Sorry

 

Should I post a copy of ScarletPimpernels letter to Amex (with a bit of modification) as well as CSL please?

 

I am doing the letters today as I have run out of ink for the printer ( a good administrator I'm clearly not!!). When DH does the communications, he is so much quicker than I!!

 

Help appreciated, thank you

[citizenB]

:)Good morning Mrs Z, It is always difficult picking up the reins when someone else has been driving.. So dont worry.

 

Right, just to confirm Amex are the OC and CSL are the DCA, Yes ?. If so, then yes, send SP's letter to Amex and copy it to CSL. I have to pop out for a while, will check on you later on.

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for your quick reply citizenB

 

Yes, Amex is the OC and CSL the DCA. I have modified the letter a little to suit Amex.

 

Thanks again!!

[citizenB]

In that case, yes what I posted above is what I would do. Keep up the good work Thank you for the click, it was very kind of you.

[Misterzeus]

citizenB, thank you, I will try and you're welcome

[Misterzeus]

Hi, Mrs Z here again.

 

A scathing letter for DH has arrived from Amex in response to the letter sent as shown earlier in the thread. As I am incapable of the scanning procedure, I have copy typed the letter! Took me ages, I'm not the fastest typist!!

 

They also include a blank copy of the Credit Card Agreement Regulated By The Consumer Credict Act 1974 and their terms and conditions again.

Dear Mr Z

 

American Express Membership Number **** ***** ***** (Cancelled)

 

Thank you for your letter dated ** **** 2008, received in this office on ** **** 2008.

 

Having had the opportunity to consider your recent correspondence, we now provide you with our response. Please note that we have no intention of responding to every point raised in your letter. However, our decision not to respond to a particular point does not represent our acceptance of it.

 

We have not included a copy of your card statements, on the assumption that you already have the originals in your possession. The card statements are evidence of the debt and verification of our claim against you. In compliance with Section 78 CCA 1974 the statements show for the period of the Agreement.

 

 

• The state of the account.
  
• The amount currently payable by you.
  
• The amounts and due dates of any payments which will later become payable by you.
  

 

With reference to the terms and conditions supplied with this letter, it can be seen that the prescribed terms are contained therein under the headings of “Credit Limit”, “Interest Charges”, “Statements and Payments” and “Varying or transferring this Agreement”.

 

In your letters, you have suggested that our failure to physically sign the agreement you entered into with it (“the Agreement”) renders the agreement unenforceable without a court order. You are plainly wrong. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 resulted in there no longer being a requirement for regulated consumer contracts to be signed by hand. Instead, the Order allows consumer credit documentation to be signed and sent electronically.

 

In response to your request that we stop processing your personal data, we point out that by entering into the Agreement you consented to exchanging information about you and your card with credit reference agencies. In any event, we are entitled to exchange information with credit reference agencies for the duration of the Agreement and six years there after, because the process is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by us or the credit reference agencies and other financial institutions (see paragraph 6 (1) of schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

This is a view shared by the Information Commissioner’s Office, which has explained that it takes “a wide view of the legitimate interest” and considers “that it is in the interests of other creditors to make informed lending decisions”. Moreover, referring to the Crowther Report and the Younger Committee on Privacy, the Information Commissioners Office has concluded that the sharing of account data with credit reference agencies for the duration of a contract and six years thereafter “… would not appear to be in breach of the fifth principle [of the Data Protection Act]”. As such, there is no basis for your notice to cease processing your personal data.

 

You refer to the Account as being “in dispute”. However, OFT guidance (to which your previous correspondence refers), states:

 

“By ‘disputed’ we mean genuinely disputed. We are not seeking to protect ‘won’t pays’ but those who are being pursued for a debt they do not owe or genuinely believe they do not owe. Debt collectors who can show that the debt is due and that any dispute has been looked into and the debt confirmed will not be in breach of this provision.”

 

We are in no doubt as to the fact that the debt is genuinely owed by you, and believe that since your Account was opened you have been provide with all documents necessary to evidence the debt. If you genuinely believe that the debt is not owed to us, we would ask you to provide details of the company to whom you believe the debt is owed. Clearly, it cannot be the case that you have spent a significant amount of money on your credit card that has not been paid back, without there being a legal entity to which that money should be repaid.

 

In the circumstances, we reiterate our position that the Agreement has been properly executed. As such, we are entitled to demand the sums due to it under the Agreement.

 

Any further correspondence received from you will be read and filed, but not responded too. (Their spelling, not mine!!)

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Anna Edwards

 

Executive Customer Relations Manager

 

Is DH to expect resumed action by Credit Solutions Limited now or is there anything else we can do? My hackles are raised!!

 

 

Any opinions or advice greatly appreciated as always! Thank you

[citizenB]

Well now, I would be well n truly p*ssed off as well.

 

I think this is one for the Scarlet Pimpernel. I am sure he will see that you have posted and pop in soon.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Hi, Mrs Z here again.

 

A scathing letter for DH has arrived from Amex in response to the letter sent as shown earlier in the thread. As I am incapable of the scanning procedure, I have copy typed the letter! Took me ages, I'm not the fastest typist!!

 

They also include a blank copy of the Credit Card Agreement Regulated By The Consumer Credict Act 1974 and their terms and conditions again.

 

Dear Mr Z

 

American Express Membership Number **** ***** ***** (Cancelled)

 

Thank you for your letter dated ** **** 2008, received in this office on ** **** 2008.

 

Having had the opportunity to consider your recent correspondence, we now provide you with our response. Please note that we have no intention of responding to every point raised in your letter. We'll just pick and choose the ones that we can answer without incriminating ourselves. However, our decision not to respond to a particular point does not represent our acceptance of it.

 

We have not included a copy of your card statements, on the assumption that you already have the originals in your possession. The card statements are evidence of the debt and verification of our claim against you. No they aren't. They are just card statements. In compliance with Section 78 CCA 1974 the statements show for the period of the Agreement.

 

 

• The state of the account.
  
• The amount currently payable by you.
  
• The amounts and due dates of any payments which will later become payable by you.
  

I think they are deliberately misunderstanding the law. s.78 requires them to provide, in response to a formal request, a statement of account at the time of the request. Furthermore, the OFT guidance requires them to produce a statement of account upon request.

 

 

With reference to the terms and conditions supplied with this letter, it can be seen that the prescribed terms are contained therein under the headings of “Credit Limit”, “Interest Charges”, “Statements and Payments” and “Varying or transferring this Agreement”.

 

Do these meet with the requirements of the legislation, i.e. are they all contained in the signature document?

 

In your letters, you have suggested that our failure to physically sign the agreement you entered into with it (“the Agreement”) renders the agreement unenforceable without a court order. You are plainly wrong. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 resulted in there no longer being a requirement for regulated consumer contracts to be signed by hand. Instead, the Order allows consumer credit documentation to be signed and sent electronically.

 

In response to your request that we stop processing your personal data, we point out that by entering into the Agreement you consented to exchanging information about you and your card with credit reference agencies. In any event, we are entitled to exchange information with credit reference agencies for the duration of the Agreement and six years there after, because the process is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by us or the credit reference agencies and other financial institutions (see paragraph 6 (1) of schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act 1998. Their first point is correct (if the credit agreement is legit); the second point is nonsense - they still need your express consent.

 

This is a view shared by the Information Commissioner’s Office, which has explained that it takes “a wide view of the legitimate interest” and considers “that it is in the interests of other creditors to make informed lending decisions”. Moreover, referring to the Crowther Report and the Younger Committee on Privacy, the Information Commissioners Office has concluded that the sharing of account data with credit reference agencies for the duration of a contract and six years thereafter “… would not appear to be in breach of the fifth principle [of the Data Protection Act]”. As such, there is no basis for your notice to cease processing your personal data.

 

You refer to the Account as being “in dispute”. However, OFT guidance (to which your previous correspondence refers), states:

 

“By ‘disputed’ we mean genuinely disputed. We are not seeking to protect ‘won’t pays’ but those who are being pursued for a debt they do not owe or genuinely believe they do not owe. Debt collectors who can show that the debt is due and that any dispute has been looked into and the debt confirmed will not be in breach of this provision.”

 

We are in no doubt as to the fact that the debt is genuinely owed by you, and believe that since your Account was opened you have been provide with all documents necessary to evidence the debt. If you genuinely believe that the debt is not owed to us, we would ask you to provide details of the company to whom you believe the debt is owed. Clearly, it cannot be the case that you have spent a significant amount of money on your credit card that has not been paid back, without there being a legal entity to which that money should be repaid. Interesting, but nonsense. There is a judgment (I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I'm sure a learned CAGger will oblige), which states that if a creditor fails to ensure that an agreement is properly made, then they clarely had no real expectation of having it paid back, and it could be seen as a gift. In any case, I thought that the dispute was about failure to comply with a CCA, penalty charges and Amex's bogus 'file referral' fees. I suppose this is one of the problems with them choosing not to respond to all the points...

 

In the circumstances, we reiterate our position that the Agreement has been properly executed. As such, we are entitled to demand the sums due to it under the Agreement.

 

Any further correspondence received from you will be read and filed, but not responded too. (Their spelling, not mine!!)

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Anna Edwards

 

Executive Customer Relations Manager

 

Is DH to expect resumed action by Credit Solutions Limited now or is there anything else we can do? My hackles are raised!!

 

 

Any opinions or advice greatly appreciated as always! Thank you

 

I sense some straw-clutching at Amex Towers. Note the politician-stylee method of responding to apoint by giving the answer to a completely different question. The rather childish 'we won't play any more' line is a good combat indicator that they realise they cannot defend their position.

 

This will doubtless be the same Ms Edwards to whom I once spoke at the telephone. She tried to feed me a lot of waffle about moral obligations, but couldn't explain the corporate moral reasoning behind why Amex thought it perfectly reasonable for them to use the law, but not reasonable for me to assert my legal rights. She's not very far up the food chain, and will now just pass things back to their collections dept., who will just give to another DCA ad nauseam - I've just had AIC's fourth attempt on the same accounts!

 

You have to wonder why, when Amex are always so sure of their position, they don't cut to the chase and go to Court. Of course, they do - usually when they think they'll get a default judgment. However, they seem remarkably reluctant when people stand up to them, and dispute charges, agreements and so on - curious, ain't it?

 

In my own case, they told me that their blatantly unenforceable agreements were perfectly valid because their grandly-titled General Counsel told them so. This legal luminary does not appear to wish to see his opinion tested in Court, however.

As they've failed to respond to your complaints, start the FOS procedure.

 

I'd suggest a short acknowledgement:

 

Dear Ms Edwards

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx.

 

Your failure to answer the points I raised, and your rather immature refusal to reply to further correspondence makes clear to me that you do not take either my complaints or your obligations seriously, and have no intention of attempting to resolve the issue between us with due diligence.

 

In the circumstances, I have taken your letter to be your Final Response and will now be raising a formal complaint with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Take notice that until the FOS has made a determination in the matter, I consider the alleged debt to remain in dispute.

 

Yours etc.

Edited July 17, 2008 by ScarletPimpernel
Abysmal spelling.

[babybear39]

It's the Wilson case I think SC...

[babybear39]

House of Lords - Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant)

[Misterzeus]

SP, thank you for your post, it did make me smile

 

I (and no doubt Mr Z will feel the same) totally agree with you about the immaturity Ms Edwards has clearly shown in the letter. Evidently she is so full of her own self importance that she thinks her intimidation tactics will work. Thank you so much for the template letter, I will get that sorted and sent to her, although I don't expect a letter back (she'll probably throw her toys out of the pram -shame). Should it be recorded or normal post? I will include a copy of it and all other correspondance relative and include it with a complaint to the FOS as you have advised.

 

Who do they think they are? I wonder how many people are taken in by those kind of replies, Mr Z wouldn't have taken it lightly, that's for sure, but without this forum neither of us would know exactly how to deal with it!

 

Thanks once again

 

babybear, I have had a read of that case you posted the link to, very interesting, thank you

[citizenB]

I do so like your comments SP.

 

Mrs Z, you have a choice of either sending recorded £1.08 and at least knowing that they have received your reply or just asking for a free proof of posting slip and a 1st class stamp and just being able to prove if necessary that you have posted it. Unless it is mega important and I want a reply I send most of my letters now by the proof of posting method.

[Misterzeus]

Thanks citizenB

 

Yes, I think we'll go with normal post and get proof of posting, after all, Ms Edwards is not that important in the grand scheme of things!!

 

Great advice as always, you're a gem, thanks again

[Misterzeus]

Hello, Mrs Z here

 

Well, well, well, what a surprise! This is about Citi Cards and as it’s been mentioned in this thread, I thought I’d keep it here rather than starting yet another new thread, hope that’s ok!

 

Citi Cards was sent a CCA (their 12+2+30 days are up on the 20th July) and have had no response from them what so ever. Today, DH has received a default notice from them; he has never received one before. They really are unbelievable, it’s dated 12th July and states”to remedy this breach” outstanding arrears must be paid by 25th July!

 

It seems to me like they are going to proceed to court after 25th July; their ignorance and blatant disregard of the law astounds me!

 

How shall we respond to these clowns?

 

Any help much appreciated as always

[Misterzeus]

Sorry, just realised that the letter SP posted (to send to Amex) will be just the ticket to send to Citi!

 

I have made a mental note to myself - re-read through thread first before attempting to engage brain!! I have so many things going on - it's hard to keep track

[Misterzeus]

I am definitley losing the plot! Ignore last post!

 

That letter was in response to what Amex alleged was an executed CCA.

 

So, I still need some ideas on what to write please, thanks

 

I'd better go have some lunch, can't think straight when I'm hungry!!

[Misterzeus]

Hello, Mrs Z here, Can anyone help please re: Citi Cards?

 

I really want to compose a letter as soon as possible, thank you

[citizenB]

duplicate post

[citizenB]

Good morning Mrs Z,

 

Are you thinking of responding to the Default Notice?. Are you able to scan the letter in ? There is a required format for a Default Notice, they have already blown it by not giving you 14 CLEAR days from RECEIPT of the letter to take action. I wonder if there is anything else wrong with it.

[Misterzeus]

Good morning citizenB,

 

Thank you for responding so quickly.

 

Our main concern is the fact that as of today, Citi Cards are in default of the CCA request (post has been, nothing from them) as their 12+2+30 days are up. Mr Z wants to write to them mainly because they have not complied, but unsure of what to write!

 

He did receive a letter dealing with one of the complaints he sent months ago (see post 45) but nowt else!!

 

I will copy type exactly how the Default Notice reads, I have yet to learn how to scan, when Mr Z has the time he will have to show me, it will be quicker than my typing I’m sure!!!

 

Sorry to be such a pain, but I’m trying to take as much pressure off DH as much as possible. He tries to pretend he’s not that worried, but I know different, he’s got enough to contend with (new job and training is hectic) and I don’t want him to have to waste his (now) precious time off dealing with these cretins!!

 

I have a few things to do first but will endeavour to get it typed up soon as.

 

Thanks again

[babybear39]

Good morning Mr & Mrs Z,

 

Your best course of action now is to report them to Trading Standards and the OFT for non-compliance with your CCA request as soon as they ask for payment (you need to let them break the law as evidence for your complaint ). This can be achieved via consumer direct:

 

Trading Standards Central - Trading Standards and Consumer Protection information for the UK

 

Make it clear that you're complaining under the new Unfair Commercial Practices Directive which is part of the CPUTR 2008.

[car2403]

The CCA Default will be irrelevant if they find the agreement.

 

What you need to do is write in complaint telling them that they are currently in Default of your request - enclose copies of the original request along with proof of postage of it - and telling them that they can't legally enforce the agreement while in Default. You then need to go on to say that a Default Notice is a legal form of enforcement of their rights, which they aren't entitled to send at this time because of that Default and that you want written confirmation of it's withdrawal within 7 days of their receipt of your complaint.

 

Ultimately, they probably will still Default you, as their processes aren't rigged (usually!) to remove/stop the Default process because you complained - you may need to apply to the Court to nullify the Default Notice, but you need to give them a chance to sort it out first.