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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Hello everyone.

 

Well I finally took the plunge and joined up mainly because I'm looking for some reassurance. I'm pleased to say that in relation to my own difficulty, it seems that I am following the right lines after reading some of the postings. I'm no expert and certainly not legally qualified but reasonably au fait with most procedures.

 

One thing that does trouble me is that I have seen a couple of postings suggesting that signatures should not be included on letters to DCAs. Can someone please explain why? Are you suggesting that some DCAs might be tempted to have a go at forging/copying signatures?

 

I have a long running dispute with Lloyds. I asked for copies of a CCA agreement last November and paid the £1.00 fee but before doing so I telephoned the CDR department who admitted that they had no copy of the agreement but refused to confirm this in writing. The only thing they would confirm is that the alleged debt relates to a loan or account (they can't confirm which) I opened on January 1st 1991. How I managed this on a Bank Holiday hasn't been explained. I sent them the CCA request and the £1.00 fee anyway and heard no more from them. Last week I received a letter from a DCA stating that they were acting on behalf of the company that the debt was sold to. I have written to Lloyds CDR stating that they are committing a criminal offence by failing to comply with my CCA request, also pointed out where I believe they are breaching OFT debt collection guidance and also threatening to complain to TS and/or the OFT in line with section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. For good measure I also threatened them with a complaint to the FOS. Having browsed further postings, it never occurred to me that by not having a copy of the agreement they couldn't demonstrate that they had my consent under the Data Protection Act to pass my 'data' to the new DCA.

 

I sent a copy of this letter to the new debt collectors together with another CCA request and another £1.00 postal order. I also stated that I didn't accept that I had any liability or debt to the new 'owners'. However, I signed the letters that I sent.

 

For clarification, it's not statute barred because up until last year I was making payments. However Lloyds upped the ante by appointing debt collectors. When they threatened me with legal action I decided to ask for more information because after a nervous breakdown and clinical depression some years ago I really can't remember what the amount outstanding was for. It seems that they don't know either!

 

Maybe a moderator will move this posting to somewhere more appropriate if this isn't the right forum?

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Thread moved to Debt Collection Forum.

 

One thing that does trouble me is that I have seen a couple of postings suggesting that signatures should not be included on letters to DCAs. Can someone please explain why? Are you suggesting that some DCAs might be tempted to have a go at forging/copying signatures?

 

This is done as a precaution. There have been a few (and I mean literally a few out of the thousands of members that we have) instances where a photoshop special has been heavily suspected. It is not something I would lose any sleep over.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Hi bounce

 

Just sticking my head around the door to say hi and welcome. I came here as a very frightened person a couple of months ago. Being here, reading posts and posting has changed all that.

 

I'm not an expert - I'm relatively new here - but surely, folk, if bounce has CCAd them an they have not complied then the debt is in dispute? So Lloyds should not be passing it on?

 

Without a valid CCA it is not enforceable.

 

In addition, if they will not say what this debt is for - why are you paying it? If I told you that you owed me money, would you just hand it over to me. I think there's a case for an SAR here -which costs £10, but would tell you everything. Then again (thinking out loud) without a valid CCA after 12+2 days the debt is not enfoceable.

 

Personally, I'm all for facing up to debt and paying what I owe. But I like to know that I owe it, and do not overpay.

 

I'd be tempted to SAR them, see what you owe and what is charges, the nmake an offer you can afford.

 

What does everybody else think?

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Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.

 

If I've been helpful, please click my scales. :-)

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Hi Bounce,

 

I wouldn't worry to much about the new DCA, if Lloyds have already admitted there is no agreement the DCA hasn't a hope, they will most likely close the account on their system and pass it back to Lloyds.

 

What I suggest you do is contact your local TS, Lloyds remain in default of the CCA request after 12 days of receiving it and after a further 1 month has passed they commit a summary criminal offence. I think pressure from TS and a strongly worded letter from you should be enough for them to acknowledge in writing they hold no agreement making the debt irredeemably uneforcable. Also mention to TS that Lloyds have breached the OFT Guidelines on debt collection by failing to halt all action while a valid dipute is in place.

 

If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

If you get hassled by the DCA just post up details and we can advise further

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

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All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

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If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

This would be pointless if the charges are less than the sum owing on the account as the charges would be refunded to the account.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Hi Bounce,

 

I wouldn't worry to much about the new DCA, if Lloyds have already admitted there is no agreement the DCA hasn't a hope, they will most likely close the account on their system and pass it back to Lloyds.

 

What I suggest you do is contact your local TS, Lloyds remain in default of the CCA request after 12 days of receiving it and after a further 1 month has passed they commit a summary criminal offence. I think pressure from TS and a strongly worded letter from you should be enough for them to acknowledge in writing they hold no agreement making the debt irredeemably uneforcable. Also mention to TS that Lloyds have breached the OFT Guidelines on debt collection by failing to halt all action while a valid dipute is in place.

 

If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

If you get hassled by the DCA just post up details and we can advise further

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

____________________________________________

All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

 

Hi Shane

 

Thanks for the reply. The new DCA claim to be working on behalf of the company that the alleged debt was sold to. So if anyone, they will pass it back to them I would have thought. I'm assuming that Lloyds sold it on in the knowledge they couldn't enforce it and it was purchased by a company who are willing to try all manner of pressure tactics to get a return on their 'investment'.

 

I'm not certain that an SAR would throw up any information about charges given that Lloyds CDR went back to my original branch to ask for more information after I first contacted them. Apparently all documnetation in relation to any accounts I held at the branch have long since been destroyed. I appreciate this may be a ruse to prevent me querying what the debt actually is but I don't think they have any information at all. They can't tell me whether it's a loan or an o/d but as both would have been regulated agreements under the CCA there would (or should) have been supporting documentation.

 

The new DCA has said that they will provide information if requested but all I'm interested in at the moment is a CCA agreement. If they manage to find one then I think I'd probably SAR them straight after they produced it.

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Hi Shane

 

Thanks for the reply. The new DCA claim to be working on behalf of the company that the alleged debt was sold to. So if anyone, they will pass it back to them I would have thought. I'm assuming that Lloyds sold it on in the knowledge they couldn't enforce it and it was purchased by a company who are willing to try all manner of pressure tactics to get a return on their 'investment'.

 

I'm not certain that an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) would throw up any information about charges given that Lloyds CDR went back to my original branch to ask for more information after I first contacted them. Apparently all documnetation in relation to any accounts I held at the branch have long since been destroyed. I appreciate this may be a ruse to prevent me querying what the debt actually is but I don't think they have any information at all. They can't tell me whether it's a loan or an o/d but as both would have been regulated agreements under the CCA there would (or should) have been supporting documentation.

 

The new DCA has said that they will provide information if requested but all I'm interested in at the moment is a CCA agreement. If they manage to find one then I think I'd probably S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them straight after they produced it.

 

It isn't by any chance Phoenix Recoveries on behalf of Marlin Financial is it? Phoenix can be a real nightmare I've found.

 

With regard to documentation there are differences in requirements depending on whether or not the debt was a loan or overdraft. Though both are regulated by the Act the latter is exempt from section v subject to an OFT Determination order, subsequently the creditor has no legal requirement to hold a credit agreement. However, IMO with overdrafts the creditor is required to of sent you notification of the general terms of the agreed overdraft when it was applied, ie Credit limit, repayments, rate of interest etc, this information (which I highly doubt they have) can be furnished by way of a SAR. Regardless though if they have admitted they haven't got any of the documentation relating to the debt they cannot enforce it.

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

 

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All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

____________________________________________

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello again.

 

Well, I've now had a reply from Lloyds to my complaint. They have now confirmed in writing that "...we no longer hold a copy of your application due to the age of the account." The response failed to address any of the bank's failures under the OFTs Debt Collection guidance. Should I write back to require that these specific points are addressed or simply pass the matter to TS or do both and make a complaint to the FOS if the responses still aren't satisfactory?

 

The letter also states that "The rights and responsibilities to the account were sold to the agents....and therefore any questions relating to the account should be referred to them." If that's the case, if there is no copy of an agreement how would anyone know what "the rights and responsibilities to the account" were or are likely to be and, more importantly on what basis do/will they attempt enforcement as I am fully expecting that they won't let a simple matter of the law preventing them taking further action get in their way?

 

The fact that Lloyds sold the debt on doesn't detract from the fact that they didn't comply with my first CCA and appear to be in breach of the OFTs guidance too. Seems like an attempt at shifting the blame now?

 

Marlin still haven't replied to my CCA request but I now know that they can't because there isn't one! Their time limit will be up by the end of the month. Looking at some of the posts on here, the fact that they'll be committing an offence is no reason for them not to continue with their harassment!

 

Can I expect a spurious County Court Claim in the post in time for Christmas? seem quite probable given some of the postings in this forum.

 

At no point have Lloyds advised me that they were assigning the alleged debt; the first I knew was when Marlin contacted me and that was a full year after I sent my CCA to Lloyds. If there's no copy of the agreement, how do they demonstrate that they have my consent to pass on my details to a third party under the DPA?

 

Hope someone can offer some input?

 

Regards Bounce62

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Well I wouldn't worry as without an executed agreement any court action is futile and easily defended.

Now once Marlin write back to you simply send them a copy of the LTSB letter.

I have a few that would suit, just shout.

Until they wait and see what they have to say.

Be VERY careful whose advice you listen too

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