PPI on HSBC loan

[loz]

Starting a thread here because I think I may have a case. Was forced into a loan 3½ years ago after changing jobs and reaching my overdraft limit, HSBC would not give me a temporary increase and offered me no option but to take the loan. A year or so later and for whatever reason I found myself in the same position again, and HSBC made me take another loan to cover the first one and my overdraft.

 

I don't have any paperwork for the first loan (DPA request should produce that among other things) but the copy I got of the current loan agreement has made me think. I noticed that where I have signed to take up PPI, the date is in someone else's writing, whereas on the loan itself I have clearly written the date myself. Thinking back I recall the lass in the branch calling me up to say I'd forgotten to sign something, and sending the agreement back to me with the PPI bit highlighted... I was stressed out about it all and can't work out why I firstly didn't sign there, then after I was pressed did sign.

 

Hopefully my DPA request will fill in some blanks. I know for a fact they did not ask about pre-existing conditions, such as the depression which I was probably suffering again at the time the loan was arranged; but I think I may have been coerced into signing for the PPI.

 

*deep breath*

 

Loz

[loz]

I've procrastinated over this, mainly because I knew it would take some brainpower to unravel. Firstly all I got from my Data Protection Act request was copies of the loan agreements & the PPI charges (though no T&C for any of it), statements, and confirmation that they have no recordings/transcripts of calls. No sign of any notes made by staff or anything else. (something to hide..?)

 

First loan of £1500 was forced upon me in May 2004 when I had just changed jobs; going from weekly to monthly pay meant 5 weeks without income and this was HSBC's response to me requesting a (temporary) overdraft increase. By the time it was arranged I was already £200 past my limit of £750. I ticked the boxes for PPI (£260) and together with interest it came to £2243-01 payable over 3 years.

 

Being as unskilled in financial matters as I am, I again skimmed my overdraft limit a few times and HSBC had stung me for £687 worth of charges by the time I was forced to take a second loan in July 2005. I had not missed any payments on my loan but was nearly £600 over my limit due to those charges, and was pushed into replacing the first loan with a new one for £3000 plus £750 PPI plus interest - total £5231-81 over 5 years.

 

This second loan particularly is bothering me, PPI-wise. I was depressed and completely stressed out at the time and I am now convinced they pushed me or took advantage of me, to get my signature for PPI. I remember signing the agreement (despite cursing them all the way) and I think I may have decided against the PPI as an unnecessary expense. I definitely remember the branch ringing to say I'd forgotten to sign something and sending it back - the implication being that unless I signed this I wouldn't get the cash. In my confused state I signed it, probably without looking at what I was signing for. This would explain why the date on that part of the form is not in my writing - either that or they forged my signature

 

I'm sure this PPI was mis-sold, what does anybody else think? It is probably useless anyway if I had to make a claim based on depression/stress which is clearly pre-existing, no of course they didn't ask me about that...

 

I'm at least due the interest on the £687 charges (which I have already reclaimed) - I make this to be £271-47. I would however appreciate any advice the good old CAG could give me before I start writing letters

 

Cheers,

Loz

[hellhasnofury]

I've procrastinated over this, mainly because I knew it would take some brainpower to unravel. Firstly all I got from my Data Protection Act request was copies of the loan agreements & the PPI charges (though no T&C for any of it), statements, and confirmation that they have no recordings/transcripts of calls. No sign of any notes made by staff or anything else. (something to hide..?)

 

First loan of £1500 was forced upon me in May 2004 when I had just changed jobs; going from weekly to monthly pay meant 5 weeks without income and this was HSBC's response to me requesting a (temporary) overdraft increase. By the time it was arranged I was already £200 past my limit of £750. I ticked the boxes for PPI (£260) and together with interest it came to £2243-01 payable over 3 years.

 

Being as unskilled in financial matters as I am, I again skimmed my overdraft limit a few times and HSBC had stung me for £687 worth of charges by the time I was forced to take a second loan in July 2005. I had not missed any payments on my loan but was nearly £600 over my limit due to those charges, and was pushed into replacing the first loan with a new one for £3000 plus £750 PPI plus interest - total £5231-81 over 5 years.

 

This second loan particularly is bothering me, PPI-wise. I was depressed and completely stressed out at the time and I am now convinced they pushed me or took advantage of me, to get my signature for PPI. I remember signing the agreement (despite cursing them all the way) and I think I may have decided against the PPI as an unnecessary expense. I definitely remember the branch ringing to say I'd forgotten to sign something and sending it back - the implication being that unless I signed this I wouldn't get the cash. In my confused state I signed it, probably without looking at what I was signing for. This would explain why the date on that part of the form is not in my writing - either that or they forged my signature

 

I'm sure this PPI was mis-sold, what does anybody else think? It is probably useless anyway if I had to make a claim based on depression/stress which is clearly pre-existing, no of course they didn't ask me about that...

 

I'm at least due the interest on the £687 charges (which I have already reclaimed) - I make this to be £271-47. I would however appreciate any advice the good old CAG could give me before I start writing letters

 

Cheers,

Loz

 

Hello Loz,

 

Were was the first post you put on the forum been hiding:-o

 

The first thing that springs to mind, is how these financial institutes prey on the most vunerable, as your trusted bank they are well aware of financial difficulties their customers are having.

 

The sad thing is that we were so grateful to them:mad: but now we are a bit wiser in their strive for profit.

 

You must start the ball rolling with them, start the process in reclaiming back your ppi, ppi interest they charged and then interest at their contractual rate:D

 

If you need help, advice etc, just shout:D

[loz]

Hello Loz,

 

Were was the first post you put on the forum been hidin

 

The first thing that springs to mind, is how these financial institutes prey on the most vunerable, as your trusted bank they are well aware of financial difficulties their customers are having.

 

The sad thing is that we were so grateful to them:mad: but now we are a bit wiser in their strive for profit.

 

You must start the ball rolling with them, start the process in reclaiming back your ppi, ppi interest they charged and then interest at their contractual rate

 

If you need help, advice etc, just shout

 

Hi HHNF,

You caught my blond moment, I initially posted this under HSBC...

 

I'm not sure exactly the difference you mean by the interest on the PPI and the contractual rate - the way HSBC do this is to work out what the total interest will be over the 5 years and add that to the balance up front rather than adding it monthly

 

Having made 2½ years worth of payments I am obviously about halfway through - adding up the PPI + PPI interest + interest on the original charges makes up half again of the remaining balance

 

Once I've done this, if I wanted to complain about the way I was forced into the loan in the first place would that be worth pursuing?

 

Cheers,

Loz

[hellhasnofury]

Hi HHNF,

You caught my blond moment, I initially posted this under HSBC...

 

I'm not sure exactly the difference you mean by the interest on the PPI and the contractual rate - the way HSBC do this is to work out what the total interest will be over the 5 years and add that to the balance up front rather than adding it monthly Yes you are correct, they add the premium and the premium interest together and its front loaded loan. When I mention the contractual interest, I mean you add the premium, premium interest together, and then calculate the daily interest at the interest rate they charged you ie 8.9%, 14.9% The interest rate per month/annum, not hte APR there is a difference. But we can discuss this a bit latter. This is from the date the loan started. Like the bank charges, you can ask for the statutory 8%interest, from the date the took the charge to the day they pay it back.

 

Having made 2½ years worth of payments I am obviously about halfway through - adding up the PPI + PPI interest + interest on the original charges makes up half again of the remaining balance Even if you are half way through the term there is still ppi and interest in the balance owing, so you want the whole lot back.

 

Once I've done this, if I wanted to complain about the way I was forced into the loan in the first place would that be worth pursuing? Even whilst you are doing this, you tell them that you will be reporting their conduct to the Financial Services Authority, Office of Fair Trading and Trading standards, and do it anyway, the more complaints the better.

 

Cheers,

Loz

Hello Loz,

 

I have put some comments in red for your attention. There are some very helpful people on this forum who are all willing to help and advise, so I hope you will feel at home here.

 

Thank you for the click of the scales, you are more than welcome:D

 

Don't forget, any question, query, just ask and if we don't know the answer, we will find out

[loz]

Thanks again HHNF, the agreement says the "interest rate per annum" is 14.9%, which is the same as the quoted APR; however it then says the "simple rate" is 13.97%.

 

Will be writing a nice letter tomorrow, brain too tired to start now

[loz]

My letter is in the post - as well as asking for the charges interest/PPI+interest back I have also disputed their recent claim that I missed a payment some time (unknown). They sent me a statement as part of my Data Protection Act request and I can't see anything wrong - my SO bounced once because of their damn charges but I found alternative funding so as far as I'm concerned I made that payment, and the statement backs this up.

 

I found some more evidence that they were implying I wouldn't get the loan without PPI - on page 3 of the agreement after the sig box for PPI there is a section regarding the setting up of a standing order:

By signing above, I/we authorise you to pay from my/our current account XXXXXXXX

(a) to yourselves, an arrangement fee (if any), an initial repayment of £87-01 and 59 further repayments of £87-20 all in accordance with the Schedule above

(b) to my insurers, the Personal Loan Protection Plan balancing payment and the amount of my Personal Loan Protection Plan loan, amounting in total to £753-80

Nowhere else on the agreement is there any other reference to setting up a standing order for £69-76, which would be the monthly repayment without PPI.

 

Loz

[loz]

Letter dated 26th Feb from one Richard Johnson (senior manager, regulated complaints and review), stating that he will investigate my PPI complaint and other departments will handle the rest. Usual stuff about replying within 4 weeks.

[loz]

An other letter dated 20th March regarding my PPI complaint, unsurprisingly telling me they are still investigating... they have 12 days tops I reckon before their 8 weeks are up and I can go to the FOS.

 

The other issues I raised - they are still claiming that I missed a payment but can't make up their minds when! I've been told 3 different dates by 3 different HSBC staff, November 2007 then October 2006 and now September 2006; I keep telling them that the statement they gave me contradicts their claims but they really are determined

If nothing else it's a fun game and a legitimate way of disputing the account, which is quite useful at the moment

 

Finally I explained my reasons for requesting repayment of the interest on the charges portion of the loan (£271-47 of £687-00), and their response is as follows:

I can see that you were refunded £737-24 in November 2007. Please note that I will not be looking to refund any interest.

Well actually it was November 2006 but the charges that became part of this loan were reclaimed in May 2006 - can I really push for this interest to be refunded even though I accepted full & final settlement on that refund?

 

Loz

[hellhasnofury]

An other letter dated 20th March regarding my PPI complaint, unsurprisingly telling me they are still investigating... they have 12 days tops I reckon before their 8 weeks are up and I can go to the FOS.

 

The other issues I raised - they are still claiming that I missed a payment but can't make up their minds when! I've been told 3 different dates by 3 different HSBC staff, November 2007 then October 2006 and now September 2006; I keep telling them that the statement they gave me contradicts their claims but they really are determined

If nothing else it's a fun game and a legitimate way of disputing the account, which is quite useful at the moment

 

Finally I explained my reasons for requesting repayment of the interest on the charges portion of the loan (£271-47 of £687-00), and their response is as follows:

 

Well actually it was November 2006 but the charges that became part of this loan were reclaimed in May 2006 - can I really push for this interest to be refunded even though I accepted full & final settlement on that refund?

 

Loz

 

Hello Loz,

 

What was their response Loz

[loz]

Hi HHNF,

 

Not sure what you are asking, perhaps I need more coffee...

[hellhasnofury]

Hi HHNF,

 

Not sure what you are asking, perhaps I need more coffee...

 

Hiya Loz,

 

No I think I need to wear my glasses, I mis-read your post. You stated their response at the top of the post:lol:

 

Do hope I have not sent you into caffene overdrive yaya yaya:lol:

[loz]

How lovely of HSBC to keep giving me reasons to dispute this account and therefore delay paying the arrears I do have - a letter dated 9th April claiming my monthly payment was not made. Erm, yes it was, it left my account on the 1st and the details on the standing order are correct

 

Loz

[loz]

I found my original agreement with T&C attached, correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see anything that allows them to share my info with CRAs... which they clearly have been doing

 

 

Loz

[hellhasnofury]

I found my original agreement with T&C attached, correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see anything that allows them to share my info with CRAs... which they clearly have been doing

 

 

Loz

 

Well spotted loz, neither can I, maybe sue the pants off them:lol: under the dpa

[loz]

Exactly my thoughts HHNF, as soon as I'm done with my PPI complaint I will be complaining about the selling of the loan as a whole, and the DPA has just been added to my list of grievances.

 

Maybe a new thread in the HSBC section would be in order, to draw people's attention to this - this certainly won't be the only agreement with no consent to data processing

[loz]

I have a reply from HSBC regarding my PPI complaint (with apologies for length):

[...]

 

Your concerns as I understand them are that:

• You believe that you were mis-sold your Personal Loan Protection Plan.
  
• You have stated that you felt you could not say no to the insurance otherwise your loan would not be agreed.
  
• You have stated that you were forced into signing the loan forms. I actually said I was misled
  
• You state that you were not told how much the repayments would be without the protection plan.
  
• You have requested to be repaid the full protection premium paid plus interest.

Having taken the opportunity to review the records we hold in relation to this matter, I regret that I am unable to support your complaint. Perhaps I can explain why.

 

Our records show that in July 2005 you applied for (more like I was forced to take) an unsecured Personal Loan. A loan of £3000-00 was agreed repayable over a term of 5 years [...] these repayments also included the Personal Loan Protection Plan [...]

 

I can confirm that this plan was suitable for a customer with your requirements. Your signature to the Declaration on the Demands, Needs and Recommendations (DNR) form confirmed that the information recorded was correct and that you were in receipt of the essential literature for the Personal Loan Protection Plan being arranged. In particular you confirmed receipt of the Product Information Pack and Policy Document, which provided a full explanation of how the Personal Loan Protection Plan worked including details of how to make a claim. In addition this form confirmed that you were aware the policy was optional. Er, I'm not sure it did, not explicitly

 

I also wish to bring to your attention that the Product Information Pack confirmed that you had a period of 30 days in which you had the right to cancel the Personal Loan Protection Plan. This provided you with time to read the Policy Document and to raise any queries you may have had with the plan or to change your mind and not proceed with it.

 

Consequently, I consider adequate steps were taken to inform you of the main features and claim procedures of your Personal Loan Protection Plan. I am therefore unable to agree to the refund of premiums that you seek.

 

[...]

 

I regret that I can find no evidence to suggest you were informed at the point of sale that the Personal Loan Protection Plan was a requirement of the Personal Loan rather than it being optional. However, I would reiterate that the Personal Loan Protection Plan is an optional policy and your signature to the Loan Agreement Form and DNR Form confirmed you were happy to proceed with the plan. FWIW I have never been "happy" with any aspect of this loan

This is the "DNR" form which they have sent:

Although I can't recall having seen this before, it would seem that I signed it... a few days after I signed the loan form. I certainly didn't tick the boxes; in fact (IMHO) the way the form is worded makes it seem as if it is designed for HSBC staff to complete it

 

Here's another question - at the beginning of this I made a DPA request for full disclosure, why did I not receive a copy of this form until now? It also refers to something titled "Your Information" which I did not receive a copy of - if this exists then it may be where they believe they gained permission to share my data, and that would be that argument out of the water.

 

I would appreciate any further advice before I go to the FOS with this. I'd also like opinions on what I can do about them withholding things from my Subject Access Request. I want to make a complaint about the loan as a whole, but if they have been hiding things that I need for evidence, where do I stand?

 

Cheers,

Loz

[loz]

Just thought I'd make it clear that I really do feel I was led to believe I had to take the PPI. I sent the loan form back without that bit signed, and they called up to say I had "forgotten" to sign somewhere. Bear in mind I was really stressed out at the time, at them basically giving me no option but to take their loan, is it any wonder that I just signed and returned the damn thing? There is no way that they made it clear PPI was optional, otherwise why would they have insisted I sign that section??

 

Loz

[loz]

Been busy/away so haven't filled out the FOS form yet, will do that tonight. I guess I should cancel the damn PPI anyway shouldn't I? Though I am concerned that they will do something sneaky when they "refinance" the remaining loan without it

 

Loz

[hellhasnofury]

Been busy/away so haven't filled out the FOS form yet, will do that tonight. I guess I should cancel the damn PPI anyway shouldn't I? Though I am concerned that they will do something sneaky when they "refinance" the remaining loan without it

 

Loz

 

Hello Loz,

 

I think we have all been busy with one thing and another:D . When you write to cancel the ppi, tell them what you want, don't wait till they do what they want;-)

[loz]

Form & evidence sent to FOS today... fingers crossed. I asked HSBC to cancel the damn policy and adjust the outstanding balance.

 

Loz

[loz]

Forgot to update this, they refused to cancel the PPI because they still think there are arrears on the account. I have tried to explain three times now that they are wrong. Not funny any more.

[loz]

Well it looks like the FOS have done the trick on this one Letter dated 11th July from HSBC:

Having thoroughly reviewed your case, I propose to uphold your complaint ...I propose to unwind your Personal Loan Protection Plan and refund all the premiums you have paid to date (including interest). The amount of the offer is £659-70 ...this offer includes an element of gross interest amounting to £66-78.

 

They go on to state that they must also reschedule the remaining loan onto a new agreement without PPI. I have been given an appointment next Tuesday to sort this out - will have to make sure they don't do anything sneaky!

 

Today I also received a letter from the FOS confirming it all. I'll fill in the acceptance forms and send them back tomorrow, if anyone has any observations/suggestions, now is the time to make them!

 

Loz

[loz]

As an aside, they still claim I am a month in arrears on the loan. I have checked, double checked and triple checked, sent them the evidence a gazillion times, but still they insist... Oh well once the loan is rearranged it won't matter in a financial sense but they will still have marked my credit file. I'll have to insist they amend it

 

Loz