Bathgatebuyer v Halifax Visa PPI

[bathgatebuyer]

Righty-ho.

 

Have sent a claim to the Hellifax for £1900 worth of reclaimed PPI, and they have today written back saying no, bog off, or the banking equivalent of that.

 

Their nonsense letter is incoherent rot containing such magnificent displays of written English as, "You have made two claims on your cover on both occasions was declined causing her financial problems". Say what? Can't quite understand what that is meant to mean.

 

My main contention is that at the time I took the card out, the full terms and conditions of the cover were not explained to me. In particular that I needed to have been with an employer for 6 months or more before I could make any sort of insurance claim on my account. I had just started a job at the time (the card was going to be used for business expenses) yet in their response to me today, they have included the fantastically worded, "You also state that you had only just started your new jobs as a Surveyor when you arranged the cover, so why were the payments for the cover taken in May 200101" Again, What are they putting in coffee at the Halifax these days?! Their response doesn't even make literal sense.

 

They have suggested that the appplication was made via a mailing, and as such, I would not have received the documentation normally provided, i.e. Policy Schedule, Policy Booklet and Point of Sale Literature. They say that the application was received by post and stamped on the 22 May 2001 (so why does their nonsense letter appear to be saying that a payment was taken on May 200101 - whatever the hell point in time they mean by that).

 

They say that Halifax Ireland will have issued me with a Welcome Pack at the time of sale (something I do not have now, nor do I have any recollection of receiving), yet later on in their letter they suggest that the card was taken by mail and, as such, there was 'no involvement' from a Halifax adviser on this,

 

Finally with their letter, they enclose a copy of what purports to be my application form - wile it appears that my signature looks quite similar to mine, the rest of the writing on it does in no way shape or form bear any resemblance to mine. For example, in the section requesting names, there is no mention of my middle name, something I always use. The address of my flat at the time is incomplete. It contains a house number but no flat number. And finally, my job title is wrongly inserted. They claim that I've written under job title, "Charter Surveyor". Er, I'm a Chartered Surveyor, not a Charter Surveyor!!! Whomever wrote that form, clearly doesn't know what I spent 6 years training to be - I'm hardly likely to write it down wrongly after putting in so much effort am I?

 

So, what do I do now? I don't recall ever receiving any of the Welcome Information they describe. The handwriting on the application is not mine, even the way my salary at the time was written is not mine. I would always used a comma to denote £25,000 not £25.000 as is written. There's something really fishy about the way that form is written. It just is not my writing. I'm more than happy to stand in a courtroom and swear on my Mum's life that it is not in any way, shape or form, my writing.

 

I've paid just under two thousand pounds to this organisation thinking it would help me in the event that I was ever ill or unemployed, instead it turned me down on some daft term that was never explained to me at the time the card was taken on. And now they don't even have the decency to respond to me with a correctly worded letter in plain English instead giving me mumbo jumbo which doesn't even make sense.

 

Any suggestions?

[bathgatebuyer]

Wrote to the Chief Exec's Office today to see if they can sort this out - writing just isn't mine! Showed it to a colleague today and he spotted it straight off.

 

Have sent it Special Delivery so it may get there. Either way, I'm still raging.

[bathgatebuyer]

Well well, got a full and final response today from the Halifax that they ar not going to refund me. That despite me raising the fact that the evidence that they have chosen to present to me is not in my handwriting!

 

So, what can I do when the CCA they present isn't my writing, was meant to be an application by mail, but appears to have some variation of my signature on it?

 

I have emailed their Chief Exec as I think this is a really really serious issue but the muppets in Customer Relations don't seem to bothered by it.

[hellhasnofury]

Hello Bathgatebuyer,

 

They make you so mad. They are bad, How do you think the CEO got his job, he would have to be tough wouldn't he.

 

If you are convinced that the hand writing on the application form is not yours, that is a very serious issue. Fraud. I would maybe ring the FOS for advice.

 

When you say application form, are all the prescribed terms on it.

 

I would certainly report the matter to the OFT and tradings standards.

 

Have you asked the Halifax for a statement of truth confirming that the form is in your handwriting.

 

There are two issues here, the handwriting and then the mis-sold ppi.

[bathgatebuyer]

Absolutely 100% sure that the handwriting on that form is not mine, my signature, but not my writing on any other part of it. My signature has been on every letter or cheque I've ever sent them so that is very easy for them to copy and stick into the box on what they've provided, but nothing else is mine; I'm 100% sure and ready to go to Court and swear on the lives of my family on that fact.

 

The prescribed terms are missing on the CCA - no mention of interest or anything like that, but it does say 'Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974' on it. Other than that, it's an application form and no mistake.

 

I'm raging with these idiots, and all but ready to march to my Police Station about the forged form they've sent me. My email to Andy Hornby said that they have 7 days to refund me the £1911 worth of premiums or else I'm going to do just that.

 

I haven't asked for a Statement of Truth - but will perhaps email the CExec again today and tell him that I want that. I have offered to go down to Halifax and meet him to sort this out; maybe I should sent him a handwritten note to request that, just so he can see what my handwriting actually looks like!

 

At times, the balance of this car was at nearly £13K. It's now down at £800, so they've clearly made their money from me on this account. The fact that they are falsifying documents to try and defraud me of more is absolutely galling.

[bathgatebuyer]

Currently trying to prepare my Particulars of Claim on this for my County Court application (going to apply to Newcastle as it's best for me), but would appreciate any help or ideas on this.

 

Basically, I think I was mis-sold a policy as:

 

1 - Not eligible at the start of the policy as I had not been in my job for 6 mths or longer while the Halifax requirement is for "...continuous work for 12 months immediately before your employment ended";

2 - Not asked whether I had alternative insurance which would cover me;

3 - Not told I could buy PPI cover elsewhere which would suit;

4 - Not explained that there were certain exclusions which would affect me;

5 - The T & C of the small print were not fully explained to me.

 

The Halifax in seeking to justify this, have provided me with a CCA which was not completed in my handwriting but which does have my signature on it. I believe this has been forged to suit the purposes of the CCA as it contains some factual inaccuracies on it which I would not have made at the time of application.

 

The CCA also lacks the signature of a representative of the Halifax and does not contain details of the amount of credit or the limit being set. It also doesn't state whether repayments are to be made monthly or weekly.

 

Would it be possible for someone to help with my POC? I've done this with bank charges already, but PPI is new territory for me and I'm a bit unsure of the ground I'm on here.

[bathgatebuyer]

And now they've written to me to say that if someone else wrote out the application, then I must have let then so I'm complicit in the fraud!!!!

 

Let's see now, what possible advantage would that have for me?? NONE!!!

 

If you're reading this Mr Hellifax, see you in Court in 2008.

 

HAPPY CHRISTMAS.

[bathgatebuyer]

Righty-ho, I've prepared my Particulars of Claim and I'm ready to send it off (got a cheque from a friend to cover the fees as the bleeders at the Halifax downgraded my current account to one without a chequebook after I reclaimed current account charges from them!).

 

I read on another thread which copied in an article from Which? that:

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service is able to deal with complaints about sales before 14 January 2005, if, for example the policy was sold by a high street bank or the firm was a member of the General Insurance Standards Council (GISC).

 

 

 

So, should I just use the FOS or continue with my court claim? Would be grateful for any advice.

[bathgatebuyer]

Sorry, indulging in some self-promotion here and bumping this!

Hoping to either send off the court or FOS claim this week, so any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

[bathgatebuyer]

Here's a copy of the supposed CCA that the Halifax sent to me which is clearly marked 'Application Form' which was then followed some weeks letter by the terms and condition on a seperate piece of paper when I pointed this out to them

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa77/bathgatebuyer/SupposedCCAfromHalifaxforwebsite.jpg?t=1205080825

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa77/bathgatebuyer/HalifaxCCAsupposedlypart2.jpg?t=1205080842

 

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this as I don't think this is anything like a CCA!

[hellhasnofury]

Here's a copy of the supposed CCA that the Halifax sent to me which is clearly marked 'Application Form' which was then followed some weeks letter by the terms and condition on a seperate piece of paper when I pointed this out to them

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa77/bathgatebuyer/SupposedCCAfromHalifaxforwebsite.jpg?t=1205080825

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa77/bathgatebuyer/HalifaxCCAsupposedlypart2.jpg?t=1205080842

 

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this as I don't think this is anything like a CCA!

 

Hello BGB

 

I have had a quick look, and I agree with you that it is a pre-contractual application form. I do not see any of the prescribed terms on this document.

[bathgatebuyer]

I have lodged my court papers with my nearest County Court, and they have said that they have received an acknowledgement of service from the Halifax.

 

Meanwhile I have received a response from their Chief Exec's Office in response to my letter from a few months before and that they will not offer or agree to settle. I've restated that all along that I'd be happy to settle with repayment of their premiums plus interest as a final settlement and way of resolving this so what their problem is, I really do not know!!!

[Unhappy Halifax]

Hello Bathgatebuyer, its MWH1 from MSE. You have to pursue this all the way. In a separate case, my solicitor went to Andy Hornby and their data controller who didn't even respond. Private message me on Martin's site!

[bathgatebuyer]

No wonder you're 'unhappy' - i know what it's like dealing with the Halifax and it is absolutely frustrating. Of all the organisations I have dealt with, I have found them to be completely lacking in any degree of customer service. Furthermore, the fact that the Chief Exec's Office is that which is responding to my correspondence and failing to do anything to repair the situation as it stands, would suggest to me that their entire organisation from top-to-bottom lack any will to serve their customers well. It doesn't reflect well on them at all.

 

Worth noting that the Land of Leather Chief Exec was recently fined when the FSA decided that he had failed in his reponsibility as Chief Exec to ensure that there were adequte procedures and processes in place to deal with the sale of PPI.

 

This is certainly something I hope the Halifax are aware of.

[Unhappy Halifax]

I fully expect them to turn up for my case. I hope they do, cos I want to see them held accountable for their stupidity and ignorance. Whether the judge sees it that way as down to the individual, but I intend to make them feel extremely small. Bring it on.

[bathgatebuyer]

Well, despite my last letter advising that I'm willing to call the whole thing off if they just refund my premiums, I've had no communication from them at all. it sounds to me as if they are happy to take this one all the way. Fine by me - I'm not the one failing a customer, covering it up by producing documents and trying to pass it off as a customer's handwriting, failing to act when advised by a customer that there is a problem over the validity of the documentation provided, failing to provide a valid CCA despite a formal request from a customer...........................

 

............need I continue?!!!!

[hellhasnofury]

Well, despite my last letter advising that I'm willing to call the whole thing off if they just refund my premiums, I've had no communication from them at all. it sounds to me as if they are happy to take this one all the way. Fine by me - I'm not the one failing a customer, covering it up by producing documents and trying to pass it off as a customer's handwriting, failing to act when advised by a customer that there is a problem over the validity of the documentation provided, failing to provide a valid CCA despite a formal request from a customer...........................

 

............need I continue?!!!!

 

Carry one regardless, You have a very good strong case and they know it:D It is a good move to show the court that you are trying to resolve the case before the trial

 

It appears to be standard practice to only sort things out the day before court, on the day, or they don't show:rolleyes: and if they do show, doesn't mean they win:D

 

When is your court date????

[bathgatebuyer]

The actual court date hasn't been decided as yet. The Hellifax have until 28th May to return their defence to the Court which, if they do, I suppose means that we are going the full way to me standing front of a judge and giving him / her the full story of how I paid £2,000 for a PPI policy which was completely and utterly useless. Also that the Hellifax have been unable to present a CCA that complies with the 1974 Act, furthermore that when I challenged the validity of the handwriting on it, their response was to accuse me of fraud!!! (In their words, "If the handwriting on the application is not yours, then you must have allowed someone to use your details to apply for a card........................if you later used that card then you are guilty of fraud" - what on earth do they think the advantage of me doing that would be? Do they really think a judge is so stupid as to fall for some veiled threat accusing me of fraud over a card which I used and have been religiously paying for the next 7 years?! What possible advantage do they think there is to me in asking someone to fill in my details on an application form if I was goingto go on and use the card and pay back the balance each month? Unless of course it wasn't someone on my side that filled in the application form and ticked the box saying 'PPI cover wanted' which then led to me paying £2K over the next few years and someone in the bank somewhere getting a bonus or commission on the basis of what that form said - which scenario sounds more likely?!)

 

The Ha-Ha-lifax really are laughable if that is the extent of their defence - talk about wasting a court's time..............or treating their customers like idiots...................or showing a lack of concern for integrity in their business dealings..............

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR - they make me so mad!!!!

 

 

Edited May 25, 2008 by bathgatebuyer

[adamski]

The CCA also lacks the signature of a representative of the Halifax and does not contain details of the amount of credit or the limit being set. It also doesn't state whether repayments are to be made monthly or weekly.

 

Just looked at your thread, a couple of things

 

Halifax have date stamped the agreement/application and they have signed it on the date stamp that is enough for the agreement to become executed in the eyes of a judge.

 

Do you remember signing this form?, have you no recollection of applying for this card? maybe that could shed some light on how the form was completed.

[bathgatebuyer]

I did apply for this card, but in all honesty, it was so long ago, I can't remember the details of it, hence me requesting the CCA in the first place. The card was taken out when I started a new job to cover expenses as the job required lots of travel. There was a 2 and a half week break between one job and the next, which apparently meant that I would not have been covered by the unemployment part of the policy which required continuous employment at the time of taking out the card.

 

I hope the judge would not think that a date stamp and a few initials good enough to assess when it was completed as anyone with a date stamp (such as most offices) could rustle up any date!

 

Where the problems appear for me is that I do some of the info is just wrong - profession, address - specifically the flat number, even the way that my salary was written. I've run this by someone at the local University who specialises in handwriting and he has said that it is clearly not mine. That's why I'm SO angry at the Halifax just saying, "It's yours, case closed, sod off" with no efforts to investigate or try and explain the differences.

 

Ultimately, I just want an answer as to where this form has come from - I certainly did not fill in the information on it.

[adamski]

A signiture can come in many forms to be legal and i am afraid that the date stamp with the signiture is enough to make it properly executed apart from that it does not have the prescribed terms so it is unenforcable.

 

It does seem rather odd that this seems to be a postal application and it was filled in by someone else with your signiture, maybe itwas done over the phone? or in branch?

[bathgatebuyer]

This is where my confusion comes from over the application, and to date, the info provided by the Halifax just makes it murkier.

 

The Halifax have advised that the application was made by 'mailer' and have stated that this is why there was no 'selling' or sale advice as such taking place in relation to this insurance. Therefore, Association of British Insurers good practice guidelines on the sale of insurance was not followed - which they state they would have done had it been a credit card or phone sale. Instead, as this was a mailer application, the details of the PPI terms and conditions would have been provided either at a later date / or at the point of sale (depending upon which if their letters you believe!). I have suggested that the two contrary answers provided would suggest that they don't have a clear process on such sales or the provisions of policy information. Certainly they have never suggested a needs and benefits form was completed, and that the whole basis of the sale relies upon the CCA as provided (which is why the present documentation and it's unrecognisable handwriting worries me so).

 

The only real conclusion I can come up with is that someone else - not from my side or on my behalf - completed the details of the form because there was some advantage in it for them to have the form say something in particular about that application. Given that it costs just £20 to administer a PPI sale, but that the rewards can be thousands of pounds worth of pure profit, I'm speculating as to where and who had the advantage in all of this!

 

Am I right in thinking that the burden of proof rests with me in this, or is it with the party who sold the insurance?

 

Would welcome any thoughts as I could be in court in the Summer on this matter!

[bathgatebuyer]

Halifax have apparently lodged a defence which will be with me over the next few days (apparently they lodged it late but that's ok for the Courts apparently - wonder if they'd feel so happy if David rather than Goliath did similar?) and looks like my case is going to rumble on further. I'll post more of the details of this juts as soon as I get sight of their defence myself.

 

Oh well, this goes from something which they could amicably settle by repaying me my premiums to going to court as a result of their own obstinance and refusal to accept that the policy was NEVER fit for purpose.

 

Would welcome any thoughts on the information and details I ahve posted so far as I am utterly convinced that I have a case, but would welcome third party comments on this in the event that my anger with them is clouding my own judgement.

 

My thoughts thus far is:

 

Invalid CCA - does not contain prescribed terms nor in the corrcet form;

CCA not completed by me - therefore, possible fraud?

PPI never fit for purpose? Sale of Goods Act not complied with;

Association of British Insurers guidelines not complied with - bad practice in sale of PPI;

Mispresentation - alluded to in marketing materials that PPI cover would offer protection in the event of ASU when the extensive t & c were never explained or information provided to as to these (indeed, their correspondence with me doesn't even agree as to what their procedures are - one said before the point of sale, and others said after the point of sale!)

 

Again, would welcome third party comments given that it looks like we're going all the way with this one now.

[BaldyBaldwin]

just tagging on and wishing you good luck

regards BB

[bathgatebuyer]

Received a copy their defence today and I'm sitting plodding through it. Will post further details once I have had a chance to consider it myself, however, so far it looks like they're going on the 6 year time bar and also saying that the fact that the CCA was date stamped was enough for them (no mention of the missing prescribed terms)

 

SHould have added that they are saying that there was no responsibility on them to tell me that I could have sought alternative insurance elsewhere.

 

Charming.