G***** v Nationwide credit card ** DISCONTINUED**

[freethemice]

This was a card issued by Nationwide in 2003 and settled in 2004. They then out of the blue sent me a new card in early 2008 with no new agreement or t & c and as I was in such a financial mess at the time I used the 2K credit limit to pay other debts and few months later realised this was hopeless and went to cccs for help with them and other debts. Did make 3 or 4 payment of £16 up to xmas but stopped as Nationwide had refused my offer and intrest and fees were still been added. Father-in-law was going to pay them off for nearly half price near xmas but as they never confirmed their offer in writing he never did. This is the record of correspondance I have noted and kept copies of:

 

10/09/08 Two letters receaved in same envelope 1st your account is underpaid by £95.13 I am attatching a default notice. Second default notice 14 days to pay full balance, of nearly £2k, from date of this letter or further action legal proceedings.

Letters sent 27/08/08 asking for copy credit agreement and details of any charges

18/09/08 Letter recieved balance under £2k threat collector coming to visit.

06/10/08 notice of default sum receaved £12 fee

10/10/08 Letter sent detailing data protection breach and stating account in official dispute

17/10/08 checked royal mail cca request rec number DW********* receaved 01/09/08 signed c s****

06 /11/08 notice of default sum receaved £12 fee

06/11/08 statement receaved fees and intrest minimum payment due £258.12

07/11/08 letter receaved kpr requesting immediate payment of under £2k+

11/11/08 letter sent to kpr asking them for copy original terms and conditions ect. Asking them to sue for the debt and informing them cccs are to get in touch.

06 /12/08 notice of default sum receaved £12 fee

06 /12/08 notice of sums in arrear 2 payments 31/10/08 £197.27 - 30/11/08 £258.12

11/12/08 letter receaved kpr offering to settle debt for £1.5k 7 days.

17/12/08 letter sent kpr refusing the offer to pay off for £1500 and offering £1.039.97 for full and final settlement. Also advicing them of my position as homeless and low waged and reminding them this agreement is unenforceable and in dispute and please take me to court.

07/01/09 phone call from kpr accepting £1056 as full and final settlement . Will confirm in writing.

09 /01/09 notice of default sum receaved £12 late payment fee £12 overlimit fee

09/01/09 letter receaved statement alleged balance £2k+ min payment £384.49 payable by 30/01/09

27/01/09 letter sent to kpr advicing that the account is in despute as no copy agreement or terms and conditions have been receaved.

30/01/08 letter receaved julie we***** with copy agreement from 03 and copy of telephone application. No credit limit no terms and conditions Nothing about apr or repayment rates.

02/02/09 letter sent pointing out obvious flaws in agreement and asking to be passed to legal.

03/02/09 letter receaved from kpr balance £2.1k threatening to pass this to a debt collection agency.

03/02/09 letter sent to kpr remove my details ect.

10/02/09 letter receaved nationwide 2 payments missed. 30/12/08 £320.52 - 30/01/09 £ £384.49 partial payment due 02/01/09 £16.45

10/02/09 letter receaved nationwide late payment fee and overlimit fee.

10/02/09 letter sent write off my debt and stop processing my data.

11/02/09 statement over fee 12 late fee 12 interest 29.35 alleged balance £2.1k+

13/02/09 kpr phoned 2pm - Advised them to call later night worker.

20/02/09 Letter receaved Sarah St***** we sent you the details you requested.

22/02/09 Letter sent rec :legal provide data protection request or else.

09 /03/09 notice of default sum receaved £12 late payment fee £12 overlimit fee

11/02/09 statement over fee 12 late fee 12 interest 29.35 alleged balance £2.2k+

23/03/09 Letter receaved Allison Ger**** the alleged agreement again with no credit limit mostly about ppi which i didn't take and data protection. Signature box clearly seperate and labeled credit agreement data protection act.

23/03/09 Letter sent rec: sue me or refund all defaults and interest and accept £16.01 a month.

23/03/09 Letter receaved special delivery full disclosure of everything nationwide hold.

02/04/09 letter receaved another copy of the agreement with current terms and conditions.

06/04/09 letter receaved £12 default (30/03/09), £12 late payment fee(06/04/09)

06/04/09 statement receaved £2.2k+ min due £563.14 by 01/05/09

06/04/09 letter receaved sum in arrears 02/03/09 - 30/03/09 £495.20 partial payment £0

06/04/09 letter sent sue me

23/04/09 letter receaved from Nationwide complaint receaved can you provide more details of data protection fail. £16.01 offer was declined as Taking into consideration the amount owed we require some sort of security. The amount you are offering isn't sufficient to prevent your account been passed to our solicitors who will look to place a charging order on your property.

27/04/09 letter sent explaining unenforceable contract asking for debt to be written off.

29/04/09 letter receaved apology for not receaving a response to letter sent 24/03/09. Sending a default notice is a legal requirement. Contact kpr to discuss repayment plan. Sorry their is nothin further I can do for you.

01/06/09 Letter receaved Nationwide. I refer to our default notice issued 09/08/09. Despite our further attempts to resolve this a balance of £2.2k remains outstanding. You must make payment of full debt or contact me within 14 days from the date of this letter. If you fail to contact me by 12/06/09 will refer to solicitors ect.

08/06/09 letter receaved Nationwide legal advisor - you have failed to pay £2.2k under the arrangement dated October 2003. You were told in our previous letter if you failed to respond or we were unable to reach an acceptable agreement, legal action would be started without further warning. A claim has today been sent to the court for recovery of the amount owed.

charged court fees £85. If action continues further will be charged: £55 court fees - £46 land registry fees - £86.25 agent fees.

You will shortly be receaving your claim from the court.

 

As you see this is now approaching the courts and could do with some advice. Not sure if they have actually terminated this agreement as on the one hand they ask for the full balance while statement state minimum payments and dates due and interest is added. Pritty sure they didn't execute the default notice correctly by giving 14 days from the date of the letter and claiming the full balance. Also clear from their letter that the objective is to get a charging order on my wifes' house (in both our names) and this is why payment offers have been refused.

Killer punch has to be no credit limit or apr or anything on the agreement just a load of waffle about ppi which I didn't take, and data protection. Even that is clearly seperate from my signature in the consumer credit agreement box.

Not sure wether to push for a strike due to the default notice not been correctly formatted as the account status is unclear. Could they issue a new default notice?

Ideas/suggestions/guidance please.

ta

[42man]

You seem pretty clued up already, but it sounds like their paperwork is poor !! no termination notice ? incorrect default notices ? no agreement ? - you could possibly highlight their shortcomings, but if they haven't terminated, then it might give them the chance to send a correct DN.....(let alone the shortcomings on the 'agreement')

[freethemice]

Will have to wait for the court papers to show up and see if they are claiming the full amount or just what would be due on the agreement.

Have written to them again though under cpr to find out amongst other things:

5. A statement as to wether this alleged agreement has been terminated or is still in your opinion an active contract. If terminated by whom and when. If terminated why have late fees, interest and over limit fees been added post this date? If still active current outstanding amount due according to the terms and condition you are supplying as evidence (1). If still active why did you revoke my credit, demand full balance is paid and instruct me to return my card?

6. Notification of the reason for sending me a new card in early 2008 and details of any agreement or terms and conditions sent with this card along with proof of postage.

Still a little unclear on the law with regards to new cards and wether this would also apply to cards replaced due to damage or loss. Surely the credit card is in effect a credit token so a terms and conditions along with a copy of the agreement need to be sent with it.

Anyone know or point me to the correct thread?

 

[freethemice]

Receaved a letter from Nationwide on 12/06/09 advising me that they will forward on the requested documents.

Then Saturday the promised court papers came through.

They are going for the full amount of the debt plus £85 court charges in Swindon.

Looks like I will have my work cut out for me. Any help advice would be most welcome in getting my pack ready.

paul

[freethemice]

Okay reading the threads a letter to the claimants solicitor as below seems like the next step while I prepare my defence. Any comments or ammendments before Monday please or I'm posting.

Re: County court case no: xxx - ref Account: xxx

Dear xxx

 

Re: Nationwide v xxx Case No:xxx

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On 13/06/09 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Swindon County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following documents mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 The default notice

3 A copy of the original terms and conditions quoted as the reason for breach in your particulars of claim. This should be a true copy of the original and the original should be available at the hearing. cont…

 

4 The termination notice or evidence you intend to rely on in court that this alleged agreement has been terminated by yourselves and the full balance is indeed now due. Any original documents should be available at the hearing.

Your client should ensure compliance with its CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any versions to include an obligation to recover and preserve such versions which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

Yours faithfully

xxx

[diamondgirl]

Looks ok to me but I'm sure others will be along to advise.

 

Can you post up the POC (particulars of claim)

Who do they say is the claimant, is there only one name and address or two on the CC papers (top left hand side)?

Have you acknowledged service yet because you can do that on line?

What is the date of service?

 

DG

[freethemice]

In answer to your questions:

 

Particulars of claim:

 

The claim is for money due from the Defendant(s) under an agreement ('the Agreement') regulated by the Consumer Credit Act made between the Claimant and Defendant(s). Under the terms of the Agreement, the Claimant opened a credit card account numbered **** **** **** **** on 17 October 2003.

By failing to repay the sums due under the terms of the Agreement, the Defendant(s) is(are) in breach of the terms of the Agreement and a balance of £2.2k+ us outstanding.

The defendant(s) was(were) served with Notice under Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act on 8 September 2009. The Defendant(s) has(have) failed to comply with the Default Notice and the Claimant claims the full amount outstanding from the Defendant.

The Claimant confirms that they have complied with Sections III and IV of the pre-action conduct practice directions.

 

Claimant is:

Nationwide Building Society, Unsecured Debt Recovery, Northampton

 

Just one name

 

Filled out the acknowledge service thing but not posting till Monday. This is for Swindon county court and we are in Yorkshire so unsure if you can file online.

 

Date of Service? do you mean issue date? this is 08/06/09

[freethemice]

And that wasn't my typo they have put served with Notice 8th September 2009.

 

It seems their argument is so flawed I'm waiting for the sucker punch.

 

1. The agreement doesn't contain the term "credit limit" or cancellation rights

2. This card was cleared early 2005 and the spend was on a new card (same number) issued early 2008 with no copy terms of copy agreeement.

3. Terms and conditions have been requested many times under subject access only sent copy of current terms.

4. Notice served was incorrectly formatted.

5. They requested full payment of entire balance (including fees of around £170) within 14 days and card back on the default making this a termination and default notice.

6. The 14 days was from the date of the letter not allowing postal time.

7. They added defaults and late payment fees after this Default Notice to the sum of around £300.

 

Could be more that was just a brief look at their case.

[diamondgirl]

You should be able to fill the acknowledgement on line, it doesn't matter where you are. You will be able to get it transferred to your local court.

 

Do you recall if the original card expired in 2008 and thats the reason they sent you the new one? If thats the case they wouldn't send you any new T&C.

 

Yes date of issue was what I mean't.

 

As long as you file the acknowledgement and defend all it gives plenty of time for lots of advise to be given from everyone. You only have to put that you are defending all on the CC papers.

 

Don't forget to send the CRP request by SD it's a bit more expensive but guaranteed for next day by 1 pm. Attach your receipt to your copy of the letter and file away.

 

Also remember to keep a copy of everything and start your file with all the letters etc., that you have received. Anything that comes without a date stamp on keep the envelope and write the date receive on it and attach it to the letter.

 

When you receive anything please post it up, scan it if you can, the more info we have the more help we can all give.

 

We've plenty of time to get your defence together as the next step will be the allocation questionaire from the court.

 

DG

[diamondgirl]

Hi

It appears you were posting as I was doing the same.

 

It seems like there is several inconsistancies with this.

 

The more info you can provide the better, can you scan any of the DN etc., onto your thread?

 

Every error they make gives us more amunition to use in the defence.

 

We all know that the muppets just file on line and they are usually the office nitwits that fill them out, you know the sort, the ones who never check anything. As we all know you can't be served with something before the day they are stating.

 

DG

[diamondgirl]

Have you a copy of the original default notice of 9.8.08 which they state was issued?

 

They state in letter 14 days if dated 1st June 09 it is incorrect again as they are stating contact us by 12th otherwise legal proceedings. Not correct they have not given you a true 14 days to resolve it.

 

It is looking more and more like you will have an excellent defence to write.

 

I am sure the more knowledgeable will be around soon as I'm still learning a lot myself from everyone without whose help I would never have been able to get my case struck out.

 

I missed that bit before been having eyes checked today had to have drops in blurrs my vision for ages.

 

DG

[freethemice]

Nice to have a previous victor on board. Haven't got a scanner so adapted a default notice I found online so it reads exactly as my copy does. Well without the personal data obviously.

[freethemice]

As to the new card it fell onto my letter box when I was up to my **** in debt and couldn't see a way out. Used it to pay off other debts but would imagine this was just a replacement. Am I not right in thinking new credit token has to be accompanied by copy agreement and terms.?

[Docman]

Hi FTM,

 

I think the new card would have been sent with the new card. What the Rankine judge called the 'card carrieer' copy.

 

More interesting is whether the second card is unsolicited. Was the original agreement terminated or did you just pay off the balance in 2005 and not do anything else? Did you receive any continuing statements showing an open (but NIL) account between 2005 & 2008? I'm wondering if the second card is covered by the first card's agreement or whether the second card should have had a new signed agreement?

[freethemice]

Hi FTM,

 

I think the new card would have been sent with the new card. What the Rankine judge called the 'card carrieer' copy.

 

More interesting is whether the second card is unsolicited. Was the original agreement terminated or did you just pay off the balance in 2005 and not do anything else? Did you receive any continuing statements showing an open (but NIL) account between 2005 & 2008? I'm wondering if the second card is covered by the first card's agreement or whether the second card should have had a new signed agreement?

 

Just what I was wandering. In my view it was unsolicited as I had no idea why it came. Like everything else with this it is a little weird though. Paid the old card off with a bank transfer on 07/10/04.

Statement weren't kept but the copies they have supplied are zero balance statements for:

07/04/05,

07/03/06,

07/06/06,

07/09/06,

06/08/07

5 statements over 4 years.

Telephone records on the account don't start untill the 14/04/08 and the first statement with my new spend was on 05/04/08 so guess the card must have arrived late march 08. No mention on the records as to why this card was sent.

What do you think? Is there a good case to add unsolicited card to the list?

[freethemice]

Just another thought as well. We were so broke when this card arrived I was actually doing a drug study for convance for extra cash. It was my wife who made the 2 transactions on the new card (over the phone) and I never signed it. Would this be worth mentioning?

[Docman]

Was your OH a signatory on the card or account?

[freethemice]

The card was in my sole name. Would be concerned that Nationwide could claim the money back from the debtors paid if I went down this path though. These were business debts from my wifes business and as she is a director I would prefer to keep her out of any action.

Receaved more copy statements and what looks like a genuine copy of the terms and conditions today. They also promised to find my credit card agreement and post later.

Have sent off the acknowledgement of court papers and also this letter to Nationwide:

 

Linda ***** 16/06/09

Lending control legal services

Nationwide Credit card services

Nationwide House

Pipers Wau

Swindon

Sn38 1fn

Re: letter received - 16/06/2009 Account: ***

Dear Linda Baxter

RE: REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

Thank you for the document you have supplied so far. I trust the terms and conditions are the original and valid at the time of the default. I also require you to produce the original for inspection at any further court hearing.

I would hate to waste the courts time with this matter and intend to make every effort to resolve this issue with yourselves. To do this I need the following answered.

I am confused and struggling to compile my defence. Hope you can help.

Section 4 of the terms and conditions you supplied states:

You must pay a minimum monthly payment of 3% of the outstanding balance or £5 (whichever is the higher) within 25 days of the date of your monthly statement.

Applying this to statement 05/08/2008 this would be £58.99 due by 30/09/2008.

1 The statement of 05/08/2008 clearly asks for £154.11 by 30/09/2008. This equals 12.76% of the balance. On what terms are you relying for this calculation?

2 On your default notice of 08/09/2008 you again quote section 4 as the breach (You must pay a minimum monthly payment of 3% of the outstanding balance or £5 (whichever is the higher). However under action required by you you require full payment of balance plus return of card. Is this not a direct and unilateral termination of this alleged agreement?

3 On the default notice the date at which action required is quoted at 14 days from the date of this letter (08/09/2008) Assuming 2nd class post (4 days) I wouldn’t have received this until 12/08/2008. 14 days as required by law from then is 02/10/2008. The date you quoted would be 28/08/2009 giving me only 10 clear days to find the full balance. Can you quote legal law which allows you to do this?

4 why were default charges and over limit fees of £72 included in the amount claimed in the default notice of 08/09/2008 and on what legal basis can you justify this?

I put it to you that this account was unlawfully terminated on 08/09/2008 by the document entitled “default notice“. By terminating and defaulting with the same document you have not issued a valid default notice and have also effected unfair cessation of the alleged account. I do accept this termination but must point out I am entitled to claim damages because of it.

I further put it to you that this court action is an abuse of court time with the sole intention of transforming an unsecured debt into a secured debt. I put forward as evidence to this your letter of 23/04/2009 log ref: 1133848 from Sharon S***.

Quote:

“You acknowledged that your offer of £16.01 per month to repay this debt has been declined. Please let me explain the reasoning behind this decision. Taking into consideration the amount of the outstanding debt to Nationwide, we require some sort of security for the money owed. The amount you’re currently offering isn’t sufficient to prevent your account being passed to our solicitors who will look to placing a charging order on your property.”

Please don’t waste the courts time with this I doubt very much the judge will look at the demand for security on an unsecured credit agreement favourably when awarding costs. I would also have to consider applying for damages in lieu of your unilateral termination of contract should you continue.

I also have to advice you that the stress of these legal proceedings has brought about an asthma attack. This has caused me great distress and forced me to miss work. I have previously never suffered asthma and hold yourselves directly responsible for this.

Yours

 

G*****

 

The asthma attack is genuine by the way. Had to go to the emergency doctor and it is really scary when you can't breathe.

Edited June 16, 2009 by freethemice
name of sender included

[freethemice]

Receaved the same copy of the 2003 agreement today. Sent back a letter stating what document I am still awaiting: Copy default notice, termination notice ect.

Also contacted a barrister out of curiousity to see what fees he would charge and how soon the payment would be due. Can't afford it but presume there is some help available to low waged on child tax credits.

[Docman]

Yep, a barrister can cost £150 - £250 per hour but they usually know their stuff, so don't need as long to advise. As a result, the bill can be less than a solicitor who could charge £75 - £125 per hour but take longer because they are not specialists in this area.

 

Have you acknowledged service of the claim form (N1)?

[creditcardmug]

You cant use the online service, as its only available if the claim was issued in northampton.

 

The documents mentioned in the POC, should have been served with the court claim, they can only escape this requirement if they use northampton...so thats one point to go in your defence already

[caro]

Please don’t waste the courts time with this I doubt very much the judge will look at the demand for security on an unsecured credit agreement favourably

 

I wouldn't be too sure about this.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/203298-guide-charging-orders-orders.html

 

Just concentrate on sorting your defence so that you can fight this in court if necessary.

[freethemice]

Thanks Docman.

Form N1 was sent on 13/06/09.

Did receave the same dodgy agreement on 17/06/09 so sent a new cpr letter to the person named on the court papers telling them what documents I still need to compile my case.

Looks like I will be doing an embarrased defence though unless their stating the I was served with A default Notice on 8th September 2009 in their particulars is enough to get this thrown out.

Can they amend this? How would the court see this?

Could certainly argue that there is no case to answer as the default letter in question hasn't been issued yet.

[freethemice]

Just phoned up Swindon County Court. They have receaved my acknowledgement of service and state I have until Friday 10th July to get my defense submitted.

So this would need to be posted special delivery on Thursday 9th July.

 

Did think Nationwide refusing payment in prefrence to a charging order would have looked good for me on the court forms when they ask what steps you have taken to negotiate a settlement. If this isn't the case I think I can afford to drop this. Do think it sucks how easily unsecured debts can be transfered to secured though.

Why do the banks have to add the 'your property could be at risk if you don't keep up repayments' on only secured loans only if there is in effect little diference?

The agreement, terms and conditions and default notice of 4th sept 2009 were mentioned in the particulars but nothing was attatched to the court forms. The default notice by asking for the full amount was in effect a termination notice. The agreement provided doesn't have cancellation rights or 'credit term' included and they claim the default notice was issued on 4th sept 2009 so how can I have receaved this?

[creditcardmug]

The fact that they have no valid default notice...and therefore no valid notice of termination, means they have no cause for action.