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    • Nick Wallis has written up the first day of Angela van den Bogerd's evidence to the inquiry. I thought she was awful. She's decided to go with being not bright enough to spot what was happening over Fujitsu altering entries on the Horizon system, rather than covering up important facts. She's there today as well. The First Lady of Flat Earth – Post Office Scandal WWW.POSTOFFICESCANDAL.UK Angela van den Bogerd, on oath once more It is possible that Angela van den Bogerd and her senior colleagues (Rodric Williams, Mark Davies, Susan...  
    • Thank-you dx, What you have written is certainly helpful to my understanding. The only thing I would say, what I found to be most worrying and led me to start this discussion is, I believe the judge did not merely admonish the defendant in the case in question, but used that point to dismiss the case in the claimants favour. To me, and I don't have your experience or knowledge, that is somewhat troubling. Again, the caveat being that we don't know exactly what went on but I think we can infer the reason for the judgement. Thank-you for your feedback. EDIT: I guess that the case I refer to is only one case and it may never happen again and the strategy not to appeal is still the best strategy even in this event, but I really did find the outcome of that case, not only extremely annoying but also worrying. Let's hope other judges are not quite so narrow minded and don't get fixated on one particular issue as FTMDave alluded to.
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    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Application of the de minimis rule in council PCNs


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Green and Mean provided a link to this case in another thread:

 

Suzanne Campbell –v- London Borough of Camden PATAS Case No 2090523567

 

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/Campbell%20v%20Camden.doc;%20Suspension%20of%20controls.doc;%20signage.doc;%20requirement%20for%20compliant%20sign.doc

 

On many occasions we see the de minimis rule being applied or anticipated in the case of Council PCNs.

 

This rule has been used for example to say that the absence of a "T-Bar" at the end of a double yellow line is of no consequence. It also appears to be in conflict with a rule established in the old case of Davies v Heatley [1971] RTR 145 in which it was established effectively that:

 

. . . since the traffic marking did not conform strictly to the sign as prescribed by the regulation, no offence had been committed, and the conviction would be quashed

 

However, as as often been pointed out this is under a different legislative framework and under criminal law so is merely persuasive.

 

But, the Adjudicator's decision in the case cited at the beginning of this post provides us with things we can directly refer to and quote. Key are the following:

 

The only way in which this sign could conceivably be saved is by the application of the de minimis principle. No doubt the Council would urge me to do so, but in my view this is not an appropriate case. This is not an instance of some minor error in the size or capitalisation of the letters, or the border of the sign, or even of a single misplaced word. The fact of the matter is that the Council has simply used a non-prescribed form of wording; and indeed one which is specifically pointed out in the TSM to be not permitted
(TSM = Traffic Signs Manual).

 

and

 

The Council's position - and I have to say I have some sympathy with the Council - is, in summary, that the sign indicates the suspension perfectly clearly. This is undoubtedly true and indeed is not disputed by the Appellant. However the fact that a sign is clear does not make it correct (see, for example, Davies v Heatley [1971] RTR 145) The Council in its TMO has specifically required itself to erect not a clear sign but a compliant one, and it is only the presence of a compliant sign that creates the contravention at all. In the absence of a compliant sign the vehicle in this case was not in contravention and the Appeal must be allowed.

 

So this gives us a clearer view on when Adjudicators may feel that signage issues are de minimis and when they are inadequate.

 

I hope this is of help to you if you are faced with this issue.

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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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The point the case makes is a minor variance to a 'legal' sign is acceptable, but making up your own signs is not. A yellow line is a proper TSRGD sign even if painted a bit wrong a parking suspension sign to suspend a parking bay is not shown in the TSRGD so is not a legal sign simply applied incorrectly as it doesn't exist even in its correct form.

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It would not be de minimis if the lack of a T-bar was relevant to your specific case.

 

One reason a ticket I had was quashed the other year (amongst many) was that there was an old T-bar in the centre of the line for no reason. It has been extended but not properly erased from earlier.

 

I didn't pick it up, but the Adjudicator was on to it straight away.

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The point the case makes is a minor variance to a 'legal' sign is acceptable, but making up your own signs is not. A yellow line is a proper TSRGD sign even if painted a bit wrong a parking suspension sign to suspend a parking bay is not shown in the TSRGD so is not a legal sign simply applied incorrectly as it doesn't exist even in its correct form.

 

I think it goes a bit further than that. It's not just about making up signs it's about the need for compliant signs to be present. 'Legal' signs can be non compliant if it can be shown that the error does not fall into the realms of "some minor error in the size or capitalisation of the letters, or the border of the sign, or even of a single misplaced word".

 

Of course, each Adjudicator makes up their own mind in any event.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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