Hi, great site, have found some good advice. Could not find another thread so apologise if done.

Basically I owe a 12K on a Lloyds Credit Card, business gone bust, can't pay and am currently trying to find work in Europe. DCA been sending letters to a friends house in UK, he is sending them back, they have a telephone number for a friend who has been helpingme out in France, I have phoned the DCA and told them that I am trying to negotiate with Lloyds directly and will not speak with them.Letters to Lloyds and a requested payment plan have been ignored by Lloyds.

What's the chances of them chasing me around Europe,? anyone got any similar experience ?

Thanks

I should add, I'm not trying to evade paying my debts, I have made a reasonable offer to lloyds until my situation changes - which obviously they have ignored and passed debt to AIC. I just don't want and can not afford to upset friends who are helping me by them getting hassled by AIC.

You should send the letter in the library telling the DCA not to call you and that all communication has to be in writing. Here's the link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

Do you know if the card has incurred charges? If it has you should send Lloyds the SAR (and a £10 cheque) by recommandé (French recorded delivery)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

If the card has incurred charges when you send the harassment letter to the DCA you should also put the words "THIS DEBT IS IN DISPUTE" on the letter and then they'll have to send all the paperwork back to Lloyds.

Make sure you keep copies of all correspondence.

Did you send your offer(s) by recorded delivery? If not it may be sensible to send them again but by recorded delivery with letter G in the templates on the General Debt forum - you may need to tweak it a bit to reflect them ignoring your previous attempts

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

Finally, no personal experience of banks/DCAs chasing around France but debt collectors don't stop at the Channel and I do know of people who've been pursued for other UK debts when living abroad.

Hope this helps.

bb

Thanks for the reply, since they don't have an address for me I was wondering if non communication was better than using my friends address again.

Is there someone in the UK who could forward mail from/to you?

Or get a PO box in France? If your local PO doesn't have any available they should be able to tell you where there are vacancies.

 

What's the chances of them chasing me around Europe,? anyone got any similar experience ?

Thanks

If they obtain a CCJ in britain, then they will almost certainly be able to enforce it in another european country.

What type of debt is this?

If they obtain a CCJ in britain, then they will almost certainly be able to enforce it in another european country.

 

What type of debt is this?

Credit Card Debt. Unsecured.

if they obtain a ccj it wil be enforceable in uK only as diffferent country different law. there is no communication between the bank of england and the banque de france, excetion in case they suspect fraud and etc...

however if the sum is very large they may be able to sure you abroad. if you are infrance you could find yourselves with an "interdit banquaire" they passed your detail which mean it will be very difficult for you to open a bank account, obtain credit , etc.... and beware charges are common over there too !!!

i doubt they will take this action as it is quite expensive for them to find you abraod sending demand etc...... .

for the adress it is quite easy to open a PO box in france.

however what they could do get a ccj in uk to your known last adress and when you get back start reclaiming the money.

if they obtain a ccj it wil be enforceable in uK only as diffferent country different law. there is no communication between the bank of england and the banque de france, excetion in case they suspect fraud and etc...

 

however if the sum is very large they may be able to sure you abroad. if you are infrance you could find yourselves with an "interdit banquaire" they passed your detail which mean it will be very difficult for you to open a bank account, obtain credit , etc.... and beware charges are common over there too !!!

 

i doubt they will take this action as it is quite expensive for them to find you abraod sending demand etc...... .

 

for the adress it is quite easy to open a PO box in france.

 

however what they could do get a ccj in uk to your known last adress and when you get back start reclaiming the money.

Thanks for the reply,

Lloyds did not have the decency to respond to my letters offering reduced payments, been with them 15 years !

Not sure if it is better to open communication with AI or just ignore them. Also is it worth going down CCA request and contesting CCJ ?

don't ignore them as . if i were you ask them a copy of the CCA , only cost 1 pounds, and start your letter with this I DO NOT ACKNOWLDEGE ANY DEBT OT YOUR COMPANY NOR ANY COMPANY THAT YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT.

if you are in the process to have a CCJ yes then contest it as it is probable that they don't have the right paperwork adn so have their claim to be struck out.

don't ignore them as . if i were you ask them a copy of the CCA , only cost 1 pounds, and start your letter with this I DO NOT ACKNOWLDEGE ANY DEBT OT YOUR COMPANY NOR ANY COMPANY THAT YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT.

 

if you are in the process to have a CCJ yes then contest it as it is probable that they don't have the right paperwork adn so have their claim to be struck out.

Thanks again, are there any threads on this forum naming the unenforceable CCA's ? Also how effective is the request for CCA and if they don't respondin time ?

to know if your agreement is enforceable check this

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

however if you can scan it then do it but obviously remove all personal details. there is a lot of person far more knowledgeable than me who can help you .

if you request it and after 12 days you can legally withhold any payment to them. after one month they are in default. it put your account into dispute and they cannot enforce it nor passed it on to any third party until they have comply with your request.

it s quite useful i was able via the CCa route to have 2 debt squashed and i repaid some others at a greatly discounted price. when you are erquesting your CCA ask also for a deed of assignment if the debt has been sold to a DCA ( if it is not an absolute one then they cannot apply for a CCJ) good luck.

sorry for my typo lol

if they obtain a ccj it wil be enforceable in uK only as diffferent country different law. there is no communication between the bank of england and the banque de france, excetion in case they suspect fraud and etc...

If they get a CCJ they can then go for a statutory demand and then bankruptcy and they can do this regardless of whether you are in France - by which I mean they can serve a statutory demand on you in France and they can serve a Bankruptcy Petition on you in France.

If they get a CCJ they can then go for a statutory demand and then bankruptcy and they can do this regardless of whether you are in France - by which I mean they can serve a statutory demand on you in France and they can serve a Bankruptcy Petition on you in France.

wILL THEY NEED A PHYSICAL ADDRESS FOR THIS

botom up i would like to know i know someone close who was in the same situation but that never happened as they could not apply French law within an UK border . ( no pun intended, sorry lol )

to get a bankrupcy in france, you must constitute your file to the banque de france and as they have no communication betwen BOE and la banque de france and that an order of judgement has no value in france only within UK.

however and this is what i said previously, by ignoring this problem it could lead to CCJ, bankrupcy etc.. in Uk and when he /she will return then the problem will arise ther and then . this is what i advised to him to opn a PO box in france then ask for a CCA and start from there.

tuhe law to chase a debt into an other country are very complicated, and i think they will only doi it if a very large sum of money is owed.

i have some french friend with "interdit banquaire" which are opening bank account into an other country, such as belgium, germany, etc.. so they get acces to cheque book , debit card etc.... as ther is no communication between the banque de france.

bankrupcy in france is very harsh,. usually people are really struggling to havea bankaccount, no debit crd whatsoever if they get one ....

yes dave they will need a physical adress but bankrupcy in france doesn;t happened automatically first they willneed to show if you can repay them abnd if yes how it will happened. once you made bankrupt you are in for 5 years with nocredit allowed etc....

Having lived in France, and many other European countries, I know what "bancaire interdit" is and, frankly, it is totally irrelevant to this topic.

Yes davedebt, they will need a physical address BUT if they don't have one they can go to court and ask for "substituted service". Plenty on the web about that and here's an example - http://www2.blackpooltoday.co.uk/publicnotices/27-05-05/12992234.pdf

If they win the statutory demand case they can then bankrupt you. It doesn't matter where you are - you are in the EEC and EEC law applies.

Someone I know very well had a statutory demand served on him in France by an English yob debt collector (probably lived reasonably near). By the way to check it was the right person they got a private investigator to send him a letter, by recommandé (so he had to sign for it) but there was nothing in the envelope...but they'd got his signature...

ihi bottomburrp i did not says that you comment were invalid. Having studied french lawi can tell you that english law cannot be enforcved in france as they have no JURISDICTION in France. so the bankrupcy can only be enforced in UK and that is it.

if they wish to chase the debt in france then they will have to comply with the french procedure which is not irrelevant as you may suggest, but rather expensive and legally complicated. he may get an interdit bancaire if he is been chased infrance for this debt. althgouh i doubt it very much they will go that far.

your friend mayhave a statutory demandbut it canonly beenforce in UK as far as know, as this taturotry demand was amde in Uk not infrance. howeve if the stat demand was made inf rance then well he has to comply with

the example you mention with the investigator well it is class as an unfair practice and may as well be seen as fraud...

however he mentined that he has tried to contact LLoyds toward his debt and he is getting ignored by them so a CCA will do very well in his case .however iof the debt ot trace him is too high then they simply write the debt oof as the status of limitation will apply. it is very rare unless the debt is really large 100k+,or the moeny was acquied by fraud theft tc...

Thanks for the replies, my understanding that 12k in banking terms is not a huge debt so chances they chase me around Europe is slim,I would hope. I will try the CCA request. Not sure how effective it will be though. I expect they will go to CCJ, as I'm not in the UK would be difficult for me to attend and therefore defend.

so the bankrupcy can only be enforced in UK and that is it.

Exactly, the bankruptcy can be enforced in the UK, so can the statutory demand, so can the CCJ - it doesn't matter where davedebt happens to be at the time - they can ALL be enforced in the UK. Having been enforced in the UK they can then start proceedings to get bailiffs round etc to enforce them in France.

I said all your comments about "bancaire interdit" were irrelevant in this situation. I did not say French laws were irrelevant - please read my post again.

It is NOT particularly complicated to start legal proceedings in France to enforce JUDGEMENTS entered against you in the UK and many UK law firms have "relationships" with other European law firms for just this sort of thing.

I don't know which nationality you are but you don't appear to be French. I don't mean to be impolite to you I may perhaps know a bit more than you about BRITISH insolvency law and how BRITISH creditors chase BRITISH debtors in foreign countries - being British and having lived in these countries myself.

I realise you are trying to be helpful but what you have said so far is really so wrong I would laugh if it wasn't for the fact that someone may take your advice and get seriously damaged because of it.

davedebt - I seriously recommend you have a good read through the debt forums. Many of your questions will be answered there. The actions you should take are the same as they would have been if you were still in the UK. The consequences, if you do not do something about this, are enforceable whether you are in France or not.

if they obtain a ccj it wil be enforceable in uK only as diffferent country different law. there is no communication between the bank of england and the banque de france, excetion in case they suspect fraud and etc...

Pardon?

We are talking about the enforcement of a civil judgement in another european jurisdiction; in most cases this is covered by the Judgments Regulation 2000 (which replaced the Brussels Convention on jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters of 1968 for all EU countries save for Denmark) and the Lugano Convention which applies to EFTA countries;

This is the procedure to enforce a european judgement in England, presumably (since these regulations are european law) they are similar in france:

Judgments of European Countries

Judgments of European countries can be registered by a fairly straightforward procedure. Notice of Registration is then served on the judgment debtor, who has the opportunity to apply to set aside the registration, but only on very limited grounds which are set out in Art. 27 of the Brussels Regulation.

The Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982, as amended by the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Order 2001 (SI 2001 No. 3929) brings into effect in English law the treaties under which judgments of the signatory States of the relevant conventions will be enforced. The 10 States which joined the European Union on 1st May 2004 are parties to the Judgments Regulation.

Significantly, under the treaties not only final money judgments, but also injunctions, including interlocutory injunctions, will be enforced.

Under the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 judgments of Courts of Member States of the EC may be registered by a procedure similar to that under the 1920 or 1933 Act. Article 31 of the Conventions States,

“A judgment given in a Contracting State and enforceable in that State shall be enforced in another Contracting State when, on the application of any interested party, the order for its enforcement has been issued there.”

Given that the Convention provides a uniform means of ascertaining jurisdiction, once time for applying to set aside registration has expired, the judgment can be enforced by the same means as an English judgment.

The Brussels Convention provides for the recognition and enforcement of a judgment from one Contracting State in other Contracting States.

Recognition of a foreign judgment given in a Contracting State shall be recognised in another Contracting State without any special procedure being required. The Convention expressly sets out circumstances in which the Court of a State in which recognition is sought must not be recognised.

These are set out in Article 27 of the Brussels Regulation as follows:

Recognition is contrary to public policy of the State in which recognition is sought.

Where the judgment was given in default of appearance, if the defendant was not duly served with the document which instituted the proceedings or an equivalent document in sufficient time to enable him to arrange for his defence.

If judgment is irreconcilable with a judgment given in a dispute between the same parties in the State in which recognition is sought.

If the Court of the State of origin, in order to arrive at its judgment, has decided a preliminary question concerning the status of legal capacity of natural persons, rights in property arising out of a matrimonial relationship, wills, succession in a way that conflicts with a rule of private international law in the State in which recognition is sought, unless the same result would have been reached by the application of the rules of private international law of the State.

If the judgment is irreconcilable with an earlier judgment given in a non-contracting State involving the same cause of action and between the same parties, provided that this latter judgment fulfils the conditions necessary for its recognition in the State addressed.[1]

The Convention provides that an application for enforcement may only be refused for one of the reasons specified in Art. 27 (see above) and Art. 28[2].

Alternatively, as people have mentioned, a bankruptcy order issued in england will be valid throughout the EU, and service can be achieved out of jurisdiction.

I think in phill123's defence he has advised that I follow the usual routes and he has acknowledged that they can chase the debt in Europe. I think the question really is what is the likelyhood they would chase it for 12k and no real chance of actually retrieving any of it at this moment.

Being abroad, I can't afford to keep going back to UK for courts