Vampyra -v- Various DCA's

[andrew1]

Dougal, a quick call to the Inland Revenue to investigate this would not do you any harm. - You might like to ask them for a 10% commission on the recovery on any tax recovered too -

[andrew1]

Potty Dougal - totally Potty :D

 

Now the serious stuff:

 

There are a number of us with the same line of thinking and one must not be confused by the premise that just because company A sell your debt to Company B for 10% of its face value that that lets you off the hook. If they didn't sell it, you'd have to pay the full amount anyway or some negotiated settlement if you had the funds. It is a business deal like you buying something for a tenner and selling it on ebay for £20 and in effect purely a business deal. However there are a number of issues being discussed such as unjust enrichment and the actual content of the sale contract.

 

The tax benefits have been discussed on other threads before regarding write off, but Company B pay tax on profit via corporation tax so effectively the tax man gets paid anyway so they are not quite as bothered as you might think.

 

For the sake of expediency in resolving a debt issue with a dca you can use the knowledge you have gained about the 'probable' liklihood that your debt was actually sold for 10% of face value and try to do a deal with the DCA, but it has also been argued by one we feel might actually be spokesman for the industry that some debt which the banks feel are safer bets to collect 'might' be sold on for as much as 80% but I doubt that personally. The way you handle it will depend upon your own financial situation.

 

Your reasoning is quite sound and is being investigated as we speak within a certain circle of individuals of which I am one as there are many 'schemes' of buying and interpretations on responsibilities under a variety of Acts of Parliament that these DCA's are purporting to be buying debt under....they are all going to be exposed in the very near future.

 

One such thread is http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/91168-when-does-original-creditors.html#post834298 if you would like to follow it - it's all an unravelling process but we WILL get there.

 

 

Hope that helps

 

Sarah

[andrew1]

Sorry Aktiv, you just give us a run for our money, but your 'alternative ' view point is quite stimulating if only you knew it! Generates debate, which is what this forum is all about. Forgive some of us , we're softies really.

 

You might be able to help me on another issue. I really want to know exactly what happens between the bank and the dca at exchange of contract time. Have you any ideas of how I might be able to get a copy of a contract at all?

 

Sarah

[andrew1]

Forgive me Aktiv, I didn't mean to pry. The beauty of the forum is the anonimity, it is useful to know if one has experience one can draw upon to get to the facts rather than all the well intentioned, though misleading at times information. No doubt I've provided some of the latter myself over a period of time. Your insight and well remembered knowledge of the credit industry is admirable if I may say so and working together for the common good and, even arguing points strongly as Seahorse and tbern seemed to have done with you is always a healthy debating table from which others can make their own informed decisions and for that I thank you.

 

AS you have probably surmised, I am on a mission to find certain contractual and legal data which actually will assist me in changing the face of the DCA market. Some mean feat you may suggest, but one within my power to do. It is not my intention to do it in the manner of those posters I mention but using the powers I have at my own disposal, but there are a few items, such as copy contracts which I need to lay my hands on to fill a few blocks in the jigsaw. Uncle Ken is unlikely to send me one, so I have to find one another way, of which there are a number. But anything you may find which you feel would be useful in my efforts to clean this miserable business up will be greatfully received either on open forum or by PM. ... and that goes for anyone else too.

[andrew1]

Yes, a very interesting point and one well worth pursuing as the bulk of thesetransactions are transferred electronically with no individual paperwork.

 

I wonder if there have been any later modifications to this? Or if a single letter referening a number of asignments as a batch (a "batch number") issued by the assignor to the assigneee would be construed as being sufficient to accomodate the section (b) outlined by you?

 

But it does seem like a possible loophole that might have been overlooked and well worth any effort to expose it more fully for, if the bank charges [problem] is any indicator, if there is a legal error involved is it possible that all those debts transferred electronically (and collected) in the past can be reclaimed + interest costs?

 

A nice thought if true

 

Shoestring

 

I'll look but I'm not a dream maker !

[andrew1]

 

“will you please forward me a copy parts of the above assignment/agreement/contract which are relevant.”

 

I did notice some-one on here has received one, even without everyone’s name on, there is around 50 glorious pages of text. I would guess it is a typical example of these assignments and with everyone exchanging extracts it would be utter chaos on here as well as the obvious danger of mis-interpretation.

 

 

 

Don't be so sure!

[andrew1]

It is a very interesting document indeed!

 

If we keep quiet about it's content Rhia, whilst the dissection goes on, then those who might have reason to be concerned might just have a sleepless night or two in anticipation of what DOES come out. I've got a long train journey tomorrow, make the journey fun, that's a certainty.

 

If anyone has any others from a bank / Cabot please feel free to PM me ( I'm getting quite a collection!)

 

This will help many people who have been subjected to the practices of Cabot.

 

Our objective is to clean up their practices. We do not object to their business, tasteless at times though it is. We object to the way that the law of the land and the rights of people are neglected and abused. All we want them to do is abide by the law, give people the respect they deserve and make the harrowing business of being in debt as pain free as possible so that people who have lost their own self respect are not crushed by intimidation which flouts the legal process and they can build their lives again without feeling ashamed of what has happened. Getting these documents allows us to see exactly what they are contracted to do - we ( meaning me and a few others with a mission to accomplish this) can empower others to ask the right questions when being contacted by them.

 

Send me the documents which are generally quite sizable documents with lots of terms and conditions ( last one was 52 pages) and we will work on them.

 

Thank you and good luck

 

Sarah

[andrew1]

Just keep us posted with your findings.

 

Of that my friend, you can be absolutely sure

[andrew1]

No doubt they do make interesting reading.

As the terms & conditions are often missing from CCA’s, there’s no proof of what was on or if the consumer crossed some out. My take on it all is that the law simply does not allow the duties to be assigned without the debtors agreement, the rights are transferred but the OC remains liable for the duties. Obviously it is ludicrous for the rights & duties not to be with the same party so the only way to transfer the duties to the AC is by delegation.

In summary the AC has the rights outright but performs the duties on behalf of the OC (some indemnity cover in contract to protect OC for AC’s failures).

Personally I do not think the above prevents absolute assignment as the OC technically has no interests.

 

 

Would you possibly mind expanding upon that theory AKtiv

 

 

 

.

[andrew1]

...and just for a little taster as to what an agreement like this can hold this is just one of Cabots snippets in an agreement which it seems to have signed up to ( Kennys signature as bold as brass) and not to have read:

 

Section 2.11

 

(b) In so far as any Credit File contains Personal Data (as such term is defined under the Data Protection Act 1998 ) each party shall:

 

(i) comply at all times with the Data Protection Act 1998 Including, without limitation, the data protection principles set out therein in the performance of its obligations under this Agreement, shall ensure that their respective employees, agents and sub-contractors do likewise and shall obtain and maintain the necessary notifications required by the Data Protection Act I 998: and

 

(b) not, by any act or omission, cause the other party and/or any of its Affiliates to be in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

What treasures we have found on the other 51 pages ... watch out Ken...here we come :grin: :grin: CFC

 

Oh and this:

 

© The Buyer further undertakes that it will ensure that the collection of any debt due on the Accounts will be in accordance with all applicable laws, regulations, codes of practice and guidelines and current best UK practice including without Limitation:

 

(i) the provisions and requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998;

 

(ii) the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

 

(iii) in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer, the Banking Code and/or all or any regulations and guidance there under

 

(iv) any advice and/or directions and/or requirements of the Banking Code Standards Board (in so far as it is applicable to the business of the Buyer), the Director General of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioner and/or any other applicable statutory and/or regulatory body; and

 

(v) all guidelines and codes of practice issued from time to time by the Credit Services Association Limited. .... and that means asking YOURSELF the question Mr er? Maynard ..

[andrew1]

PS. Richard, my views are the same as yours where there are subsidiary companies-there must be some tax advantage. I have said I do not think they were set up as 2 or more companies to confuse us but may be taking advantage by using 1 to hide behind the other (I was thinking perhaps rights with one and duties with other).

 

I've said this before, but I still say when the dca's ( Cabot ) set up this myriad of of companies they did so for a different reason altogether than what you suggest, because at that time debt collection agencies were in a grubby world and they never dreamt there would be a consumer debtor backlash like this, just like the banks so constructed their organisations around the practicalities of tax benefits and certain other benefits to them at the time.Now the situation has gone full circle on them and they will soon be vanishing back from whence they came.

 

Otherwise an informative explanation Aktiv - well done ( pity we don't all learn shorthand anymore )

[andrew1]

Thank you Richard for explaining this in such detail. This renders one or two of the people we know who are offices of companies suitable candidates to report themselves to the local nick ! - very interesting and this assists in our quest to bring DCA's into line.

[andrew1]

If the rights and duties issue is raised and the debt is pursued to court then the naming of the party who has retained the duties should be automatic in my opinion. If the dca has the rights & the OC has the duties (debatable) then why not let the dca and the OC fight it out between themselves rather than getting involved ourselves?

[andrew1]

Sarah, do you mind having a look at this to see how well it translates into the CCA?

 

According to a Barrister under the law of obligations, the rights to a contract belong to a creditor, and the duties (ooh I just love this one) guess? None other than the debtor!!!!

 

www.lawscot.org.uk/uploads/Update/Andrew%20Bowen.pdf

 

It also relates to the Law of Property not the CCA as implied.

[andrew1]

Interesting comments.

 

AH ha - it speaks