Claim against HSBC

[jimclark]

Hi Lateralus - Have finally received a breakdown of what their "Total Charges" mean on a business account. It's basically "Activity Commission" (which is probably legitimate) and "Overdraft Fees" (which is certainly not)! At least they appear to be moving forward - their comment is "to review your claim for reimbursement of certain overdraft fees where a transaction exceeded a pre-agreed facility". Sounds promising. It's interesting they didn't do a breakdown of "Total Charges" on their statements, but only gave this detail when threatened with court action. I guess I'll re-do my complex bank charges spreadsheet with just the "Overdraft Fees" (which is the bulk of it) included. However, since these fees pushed the account into further overdraft I believe that I should progress with the reclaim of interest incurred on the account (as determined by the complex spreadsheet). I'm aware that I can only claim for the 8% interest if it goes to court. What do you think?

[lateralus]

i think i lost you after hi lateralus...lol

i'll get celicaman to take a look - he's my business manager!

[Celicaman]

i think i lost you after hi lateralus...lol

i'll get celicaman to take a look - he's my business manager!

 

 

Too Kind Lattie

 

Your liitle flower CM

[Celicaman]

Hi Lateralus - Have finally received a breakdown of what their "Total Charges" mean on a business account. It's basically "Activity Commission" (which is probably legitimate) and "Overdraft Fees" (which is certainly not)! At least they appear to be moving forward - their comment is "to review your claim for reimbursement of certain overdraft fees where a transaction exceeded a pre-agreed facility". Sounds promising. It's interesting they didn't do a breakdown of "Total Charges" on their statements, but only gave this detail when threatened with court action. I guess I'll re-do my complex bank charges spreadsheet with just the "Overdraft Fees" (which is the bulk of it) included. However, since these fees pushed the account into further overdraft I believe that I should progress with the reclaim of interest incurred on the account (as determined by the complex spreadsheet). I'm aware that I can only claim for the 8% interest if it goes to court. What do you think?

 

Hi JC, yes the charges to claim back are the overdraft fees, also look on statements for 'recall charge ' returned cheque ' type of things as well as they only appear on the statements. Yes go for the claim of overdraft interest. They will rebuke the charges, saying they dont pay it, but keep them as part of your claim when you file at court, so your claim is 'charges plus OD interest'.

Remember it is only reclaimable if at the time of the charge you were overdrawn at the time.

When you file claim, add the 8% on to whole claim at that point.

This is then the NEW amount you will settle for before the court date.

So then its 'Charges plus OD interest Plus 8% stat interest' plus costs for filing 7 AQ if required.

If the bank offer full claim before filing at court, take the money.

If they only offer charges back,without the OD interest, refuse it and keep on track, its up to them to give it all back. Hopefully they dont offer it all, then the bonus is you get to add the 8% to the claim

Good luck

 

Celicaman

[jimclark]

Thanks for the quick response. Much appreciated!

[jimclark]

My claim for my personal account charges to be refunded was to appear before the local county court judge on 18th July, '07. Helpful person at the court advised me that I wouldn't hear anything for 10 days as the court is that far behind. I don't believe that DG have followed up on their original defence (no surprise there then!). I presume that the recent proposed OFT test case will not have a bearing on this case???

Also, have applied to bank for a refund of my old business account charges. They have said " I am willing (without admission) to review you claim for reimbursement". They have not replied since my letter of 10th July, so I've given them another nudge letter. I understand that with a business account, charges are not being tested in the OFT case, and therefore will not be affected by any stays or "waivers". Can someone confirm this?

[Castlebest]

With Personal accounts and the OFT test case its very early days but from what we saw on Friday we think if you have a court date the Judge will continue with the process, but this up to the Judge.

 

Business claims are not part of the OFT's test case as they are based on different case law so these should progress as normal.

 

pete

[jimclark]

Thanks for the quick reply, Castlebest. Keeping fingers crossed. Don't want to think I have wasted months (plus £120 court filing) on this one. Have repeatedly sent copies of letters to the court demonstrating DGs lack of response.

[Castlebest]

Just found this in the welcome forum, look at post number 10 by GaryH

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107646-does-yesterdays-announcement-affect.html

 

pete

[jimclark]

Still waiting on my personal account (from 18th August at the County Court!).

However have had a reply from HSBC on my BUSINESS ACCOUNT.

They still dispute the interest calculated from the complex excel charges calculator - where you add in the interest when you are in an overdrawn condition. This is not the 8% if it were to go to court. They have offered 40% of the amount claimed - not because they admit liability "of course", but they are "mindful of the management time and irrecoverable costs that may be incurred should this mater become protracted"! Also, "please be aware that this will be our only offer, made in full and final settlement of your refund request".

So, what's the consensus of opinion - accept the offer or got to court? This claim apparently relies on different case law to the personal account stuff (which seems to be on hold at the moment). However will the county court judge view it as all part of the same and put this BUSINESS ACCOUNT claim on hold as well?

[Celicaman]

Still waiting on my personal account (from 18th August at the County Court!).

However have had a reply from HSBC on my BUSINESS ACCOUNT.

They still dispute the interest calculated from the complex excel charges calculator - where you add in the interest when you are in an overdrawn condition. This is not the 8% if it were to go to court. They have offered 40% of the amount claimed - not because they admit liability "of course", but they are "mindful of the management time and irrecoverable costs that may be incurred should this mater become protracted"! Also, "please be aware that this will be our only offer, made in full and final settlement of your refund request".

So, what's the consensus of opinion - accept the offer or got to court? This claim apparently relies on different case law to the personal account stuff (which seems to be on hold at the moment). However will the county court judge view it as all part of the same and put this BUSINESS ACCOUNT claim on hold as well?

 

Hey JC, I got same sort of reply from Mr patel at HSBC, offered under half and said they didnt pay OD interest on charges ( Funny thing that, in Halliday vs HBOS the judge said you can claim it ) and some other rubbish about oft report ( from business prelim letter)was only for credit cards, (wrong again !) and did not cover business claims, well actually they just said other banking and were not specific about any type of banking , personal or business.

I sent my nice reply back to him, educating him in his wrongful beliefs & telling him to stuff his offer

Photoman & peteranderson are doing some good stuff on Business POC for filing claim in this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/68191-claiming-business-account-lets.html

 

Its your choice about accepting, its your money theyve unlawfully took.

Read up & decide, i dont think they have a leg to stand on, and DG not yet stepped in a court yet.

 

Good luck

 

Celicaman

[jimclark]

Thanks Celicaman,

Let's see how this one grabs them!

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, 2007.

I believe that you may be confused over interest (at 8%) charged when this case goes to court, with interest when the account is in an overdrawn condition and the situation is exacerbated by your penalty charges. Reference to the case Halliday vs HBOS should clarify this for you (where the court decided that these charges were admissible).

In addition, no claim has been made for other charges that you refer to in the second paragraph of your letter (facility fees, money transmission charges etc.). The charges that you have unlawfully applied are all covered in the spreadsheet supplied to you in my previous letter.

You will appreciate that business account charges are not being tested in the OFT case, and therefore will not be affected by any stays or "waivers", since reference to The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not made.

Furthermore, failure to satisfy my claim for a refund of your penalty charges in full will result in this case going to court, with the resultant 8% charges plus court filing fee added.

[Celicaman]

Hi JC, presuming this is the LBA & refusal of offer in one, I would use what you have done with the template letter LBA. they are going to ignore it, anyway,like they have mine, just counting days to file. ( live in hope that if i sound like i know what im talking about they will make full offer before refering to solicitors)

I would start to read up on business POC's for filling in N1 and then on how to state your case IF/When the judge tries to stay the claim, IE you have to make them realsise that its a business claim not personal and for that reason the court should not stay the claim.

JC make sure you research what i say here as it is what i have learned on CAG site, please dont just quote my understandings, read around and understand the arguments, its too easy to copy other posts and use them without understanding the workings ( I know ive done it) A lot to get head around i know, & im still working on it too, I think its called the blind leading the blind LOL. I know what needs to be done, but dont have all the answers as to how, im still reading.

Your only couple weeks behind me so lets see how i work it as well

 

Celicaman

[jimclark]

Have contacted my county court with reference to my PERSONAL account claim. They say the judge has thrown out DGs defence and awarded me the full amount of my claim. Fingers crossed until I see the confirmation letter. Thanks to all who have contributed to my efforts. Once I receive a cheque I will send a contribution to CAG! I have noticed that since my claim HSBC have continued to pile on monthly penalty charges, though. Shall I just start a new claim or will this be on hold 'til the end of the OFT saga? In other words, can I tag on these new charges to the claim. HSBC say I will have to wait at least 12 months until the OFT thing is over and there is no point in writing in (but they would say that, wouldn't they!).

[Audreygreeneyes]

well done Jim, really pleased for you, can we ask you to post your ref number so I and others can use it in our cases........ it would be really helpful..........

 

the advantage of applying now for your next case is that at least the clock would be ticking and it owuld be reg before any agreement is struck...........

[Audreygreeneyes]

[jimclark]

Ref No? Do you mean court Claim number?

[jowalshy]

I think that she means your claim ref number.

 

Well done on your win. (sorry it isn't as flash as auburns)

[jimclark]

It's - Colchester County Court. Best of luck to all!

[Audreygreeneyes]

thanks very much Jim, it is greatly appreciated..............

 

Jo go to my thread and on it freaky told me how to do it

[Audreygreeneyes]

[jimclark]

Maybe this has already been covered but, if all new claims against penalty charges are on hold whilst the OFT scenario plays itself out, then shouldn't all new penalty charges be on hold too?

[pinkduchess]

great news jim - well done

[lateralus]

you would think so - wouldn't you -

you'd be wrong!

[jimclark]

Yes, maybe I was being naïve, or hopeful (or both)! If their penalty charges had been on hold, this would prompt them to get into court with the OFT sooner, in the belief they would win. As it is, they are continuing to receive their unfair revenue stream.