Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Pam - I suggested that the letter NOT be sent at this stage - it looks like a sort of knee jerk reaction? - any comments? (and I agree with all your amendments, of course!)

 

Hi LB

 

Yes, totally agree that no letter needs to be sent (if at all) until the full time limit is up. It's not our place to help them avoid the consequences of not complying!

 

My concern with this site now is that little snippets of news about rights/possible courses of action are getting passed around between many threads and some people may be jumping in with all guns blazing without doing the necessary research first.

 

IMO this is potentially very dangerous and in extreme cases, misinfomation 'might' backfire with damaging consequences to a particular case.

 

If you are going to take on these dinosaurs, you need to make sure your clubs are up to the job!

 

Regards, Pam

[ladybird17]

well Pam, we've been down this route before have we not?

 

So please all, be absolutely SURE of the implications that may result!

[hellhasnofury]

Hello all,

 

I have found this information to be extremely useful and this thread is really informative. I love this debate.

[ladybird17]

there's a saying (can't remember who first said it George Bernard Shaw...? or similar) that

 

"reading, to the mind, is like exercise to the body"

 

So I've now amended it to

 

CAGging to the mind.........etc!

[davefirewalker]

for those that wanted to see it ...here it is... cany you spot any glaring errors

 

oh btw I was also unemployed and it was signed at home as well

 

[ladybird17]

Is that it? - nothing on the other side? - mind you, this is a loan as opposed to CC Agreement - and I'm not so well up on loans

[rinkydinkydoo]

Why do they keep sending out such rubbish, they know it has to be signed by both customer and creditor, they seem to try it on in any way they can;)

regards,

rinkydinkydoo

[davefirewalker]

ermmm it was signed by both I erased it for sake of security

 

I really thought I was screwed until I REALLY studied it !!!

 

it seemed to have everything it should.....but !!!!

 

Dave

[rinkydinkydoo]

ermmm it was signed by both I erased it for sake of security

 

I really thought I was screwed until I REALLY studied it !!!

 

it seemed to have everything it should.....but !!!!

 

Dave

 

So sorry, i couldnt tell it was signed then erased, I didnt mean to give you a coronary, lol,

regards, rinkydinkydoo:-D

[The Lantana]

I must admit I'm amazed welcome wrote that off so easily. Fixed sum agreements aren't my strong point (yet), but most of the key stuff is there - although presumably they should have put in something about cancellation rights. Maybe they've been really bloodied in court lately.

 

Like you dfw I'd have expected a battle. Nice result.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[davefirewalker]

This is the letter I sent.... their reply was a VERY apologetic letter and a removal of defaults

 

Welcome Finance

 

Agreement no. 1475014

 

Dear Sirs

With regard to my alleged debt to your company, it has come to my notice that the documents sent to me after my request to view the original signed executed agreement do not seem to comply with terms laid down by the CCA 1974.

 

After being hounded and called endlessly because of missed payments due to unemployment, your representative came to my home and convinced me to sign a new agreement on the spot. This was done at my front door in the dark and NO terms and conditions were available to view. I felt pressurised and unable to refuse.

On further examination I have concluded that some of the statements on the document were also wrong.

In your agreement in the customer declarations it states that (d) you signed this agreement at our business premises. And (h) You confirm that you are in full time employment.

Neither of those statements were true as I signed at my home address and was still unemployed at the time.

 

Further the agreement does not seem to adhere to the guidelines laid out under the consumer credit act in that section 60 does not seem to have been complied with, in that:-

(a) the amount and rate of the total charge for credit (in the case of a consumer credit agreement), has not been shown

(b) the protection and remedies available to him under this Act

 

©there is no reference to the right to cancel

 

(d) the amount of loan appears to be wrong

As such It is now clear that the document does not seem to be a properly executed agreement within the meaning of the act. Therefore this agreement seems to be unenforceable.

 

As such I now require you to remove any and all defaults that you have placed against my account. If this is not done within 7 days I shall seek legal remedies and call into question your fitness to hold a consumer credit license.

I await your response

 

 

---------------------------

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

ermmm it was signed by both I erased it for sake of security

 

I really thought I was screwed until I REALLY studied it !!!

 

it seemed to have everything it should.....but !!!!

 

Dave

 

Hi

 

The agreement does have the total amount payable, interest rate, repayments, APR etc. so even if all necessary statutory statements are not present it doesn't look like one that would be totally unenforceable - only 'maybe' enforceable only with a court order, unless I've missed something obvious.

 

Out of interest, what was it that you challenged this agreement over, that prompted them to write off the debt?

 

Congrats. by the way!!

 

Regards, Pam

[The Lantana]

Nice letter, lovely result.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[davefirewalker]

read my prior post....you must have just missed it

 

the total loan was (if you do the maths) £2737.26 which is 36.99 * 74

this was not on the document

 

the total charge for credit was not on the document

 

The right to cancel was not on the document

 

It said I signed it at their office (I signed at home)

 

it said I was employed (I was unemployed at the time)

 

They added an acceptance fee before the interest

 

plus some other stuff

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

Hi again

 

Just read your last post and can see what you said about the amount and rate of total charge for credit. The omission of this alone makes the agreement unenforceable.

 

But, it did not need cancellation statements because cancellable agreements are only those in which the negotiations take place ON trade premises, but the customer signs OFF trade premises. Some non-cancellable agreements may be given cancellable status e.g. credit cards have, but it's not the norm. This is why the document tries to get your agreement that it was signed ON trade premises - so it would not be cancellable. Unfortunately for them they have c**cked up!. This is similar to the circumstances of my case a couple of years back.

 

Regards, Pam

[progenic7]

Dave,

 

forgive my ignorance but what relevance does the fact that the acceptance fee is added before the interest (i dont understand what you mean and why)

 

Johnny

[joneshousehold]

According to the OFT guidelines a cancellable agreement is

Cancellable agreements are those where a trader discusses credit arrangements (and/or the goods to be supplied) face-to-face with the customer and the customer signs the agreement off trade premises.

 

If this description is accurate then Dave's agreement should be cancellable.

 

Whatever the reason, Dave - well done. You must feel really good about the result.

[davefirewalker]

Dave,

 

forgive my ignorance but what relevance does the fact that the acceptance fee is added before the interest (i dont understand what you mean and why)

 

Johnny

 

well if they add the acceptance fee FIRST the 6+ years of interest goes on that as well.... not a bad earner

 

Dave

[davefirewalker]

According to the OFT guidelines a cancellable agreement is

 

 

If this description is accurate then Dave's agreement should be cancellable.

 

Whatever the reason, Dave - well done. You must feel really good about the result.

 

WELL PLEASED......

 

just goes to show that there are probaly loads of agreements that are invalid, if you just take the time to look. I'm not advocating getting out of your moral obligations here, but they choose to ignore they law when it suits them and use the law when it benefits them. its time we gave them some back. My original quest was to enter into negotiations to remove an added £1000+ to the debt, but YES i am pleased a the result.

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

 

If this description is accurate then Dave's agreement should be cancellable.

 

 

Hi, yes you're quite right - I stand corrected!

 

So. a complete b****up all round! Nice one!

 

Calling all W F customers - check those agreements!

 

Regards, Pam

[itsmeandonlyme]

Hello everyone,

Just subscribing....Very intresting thread...relevant info...

I am a Welcome customer as well..already in the court stage Claiming PPI and Medicare insurances back...I have exactly same argeement as Dave..but i had signed it at the branch..The one thing is that on insurance declaration thay put me as a home owner-I wasn't and i am not...anyways, Dave, i would like to know what Mr S-n replied to the letter you had sent..I do not want to Haijack this thread..but everybody is more than welcome to look at my thread Itsme VS Welcome Finance. Dave is right they did put acceptance fee before the interest......etc

There is my other claim with Creation Finance:

My question is...if the account is closed but i am currently claiming the charges back and the company produced me only with copy of the application form "as an agreement" with only my signature....???? is it anything could be done about it? how can i present it to the company?

Sorry if the question is not clear..i am just trying to use recently acquired information i have found in this thread.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Maria

[InKogneeToh]

Hello everyone,

Just subscribing....Very intresting thread...relevant info...

I am a Welcome customer as well..already in the court stage Claiming PPI and Medicare insurances back...I have exactly same argeement as Dave..but i had signed it at the branch..The one thing is that on insurance declaration thay put me as a home owner-I wasn't and i am not...anyways, Dave, i would like to know what Mr S-n replied to the letter you had sent..I do not want to Haijack this thread..but everybody is more than welcome to look at my thread Itsme VS Welcome Finance. Dave is right they did put acceptance fee before the interest......etc

There is my other claim with Creation Finance:

My question is...if the account is closed but i am currently claiming the charges back and the company produced me only with copy of the application form "as an agreement" with only my signature....???? is it anything could be done about it? how can i present it to the company?

Sorry if the question is not clear..i am just trying to use recently acquired information i have found in this thread.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Maria

 

Hi Maria

 

Glad I'm not the only one still not in bed!!

 

In your thread, you have said that there is a difference in the way the figures on your agreement add up.

 

Do you have access to a scanner so you could scan a copy of your agreement for me to see, either on this site or to my email address? You can use a programme called 'Photobucket' to upload the images (you'll find this by searching on the web).

 

Otherwise, could you post up in your thread all the different amounts exactly in the order they are shown on your agreement and what they relate to?

 

I would be interested to see the whole agreement really as serious errors 'could/may' have been made in it.

 

Regards, Pam

[itsmeandonlyme]

Hello Pam..waiting for the new printer-scanner..as mine has "died" a week ago...I can send you a copies from my camera......))))))))))Hopefully new printer will arrive monday-tuesday:)))

Ok...not sure about dave's agreement but mine has a T&C on the back...i believe it looks like legal and forceble...BUT...

With the agreement i have received a "Customer Declaration Form" and 2 Policy Schedules for the Payment Protection Insurances and Medicare 24- was missold as part and parcel of the loan...

 

Now..as Dave said they charged an interest on the acceptance fee...On the agreement there is no final amount of the payment..well there isn't the Total Amount (with the Interest,Insurances).. that had to be paid by the end of the agreement...It does give you the loan amount+ APR and monthly APR+ amount of months+ Insurances...But you wouldn't see the total to be paid at the end of the agreement...at all....

Next..In the "Declaration"(in black and white that i want to take those insurances) it says that the loan is secured.......I didn't have house that time...but as i didn't have a time to read..i had signed...a secured loan agreement.....

Next..when i asked them to cancel PPI and Medicare..they refused and sent me a copy of Policy Schedule with Different cancellation section...different to the one i received with the agreement...(that allows me to cancel Medicare only in 30 days)....Mine hasdifferent wording- cancellation on the request and refund

When i point it to them..they apologised, confirmed loan wasn't secured, cancelled Medicare and PPI... refunded £22.44(from £1146.36+ interest paid) anything...so now i am in court ...well nearly there:)) I have 2 month left with them...But i want all those money back

 

Phew:))))))))))Very hard...to explain my whole 3 month battle in single post...

 

Pam, i am more than happy to send you all the copies or to anybody else...

 

Any help with supporting my claim would be highly appreciated...)

 

xxxx

Maria

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

I understand that there are several issues with this agreement but the one that is likely to have the most impact is the way in which the terms of the agreement are shown - particularly the total amount payable not being present and the interest added after acceptance fee.

 

These 2 elements could be very serious indeed, but I would really need to see the documents for myself before I could give an honest opinion.

 

Post them up as soon as you can but don't forget to blank out all your personal details from them. (Or PM me when you're ready and I'll send you my email address)

 

Regards, Pam

[itsmeandonlyme]

Thanks Pam, will wait till the printer arrives...but really i can't wait:))) as i have only 2 payments left and 2 weeks for WF to submit there defence..I am glad i have found you guys here...Better late than never:))))Will PM you when i am ready with proper scanned documents:)))

 

Regards,

 

Maria