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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card


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Although I don't THINK I can see an interest rate????

 

Yes I know........

 

that may be the "only" loophole

 

just studying the oft docs again........

 

BTW its a non cancellable agreement (done by post).........made cancellable by the inclusion of the right to cancel box

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Seahorse....just noticed time of post 04.21........I thought I was an insomniac..........:-)

 

mind you I have to turn pc off reasonably handy missus cant sleep with me tapping (must get a laptop)

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Hi everyone,

 

I have been ruminating over prescribed terms, specifically the total charge for credit (I should get out more, I know:eek: ) and want to raise a point for discussion, that may also prove very useful for those individuals whose agreements sadly;) conform to the CCA 1974 and Regs 1983 etc...!

 

On an agreement, lets assume it's a credit card, where the interest rate is clearly displayed, as are the charges for late pmts and going over the agreed limit. Of the many agreements I have looked at, nowhere can I find a statement to the effect that interest will be levied on said charges. This will not come as a surprise to anyone I dare say. The point is, the CCA 1974 is very specific and whilst I may seem like I'm being pedantic, if it's not in the contract, it cannot be added, but it should form part of the TCC otherwise people are being deceived. It may also provide an argument as to the enforceability of the agreement as it should be stated clearly that interest will be levied.

 

It may seem like an obvious point that interest will accrue on said charges, but the banks and c/c's don't have to add interest but they do nevertheless! Being the cynic I am as far as the banks and c/c's are concerned, I believe it is policy not to disclose this fact in the T&C's, as maybe even the hierarchy within these Companies think including it is a p*** take too far, even for them!

 

All comments welcomed and appreciated...!:)

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:-)

HI

 

This is a very interesting and under researched aspect on this thread IMHO, I am sure that behind the scenes the brains are liooking at this, i am also very interested in any comments and shall research as best I can.

 

Regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for replying to my post.:)

 

I have recently obtained the definitive works on consumer credit by Professor Goode and the more I read, the more I am convinced there is an angle here. When you consider that the CCA 1974 was enacted to protect consumers, and the Regs made under the Act demands of creditors strict compliance with its provisions; it could hardly be considered in keeping with the spirit and more importantly the words of the legislation, if, as a part of the contract interest is added to charges, without it being stipulated in the T&C's and more importantly in the TCC! Given the revenue that banks and c/c's could conceivably generate in interest alone, perhaps from people who repeatedly "offend" in their opinion, I am positive that such deceptive charging was exactly the sort of exploitation that the Act sought to eradicate!

 

In my view, this is an even more underhand method of parting customers from their money by the banks! The revolvers, as the banks and c/c's affectionately(?) call customers who essentially borrow constantly and only ever pay the minimum, who also miss pmts, earn these companies fortunes! That's why for the most part, they are oh so happy to chuck money and cards at people, because one way or another they'll make you pay.....and the non disclosure of interest on charges at whatever rate it might be, is a perfect way to conceal what they are taking unlawfully!

 

Therein lies the irony, they can earn lots of money on charges that should never have been levied in the 1st place, priceless! Deep breath and relax....end of rant!;)

 

I have cases coming up and I will be putting this argument forward strenuously! I do enjoy a good fight!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:)

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Laiste, I think you're right here.

 

A CC company says they will make a charge of £12.00 for late payment for instance. Nowhere does it say that they will charge £12.00 + interest, but they do, effectively meaning one instance of late payment could end up costing the debtor considerably more than £12.00.

 

Good thinking!

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From my understanding, if the account is in dispute all charges cease, until the dispute is settled or ended. If you go to court and win they cant put charges on anyway.......what are they trying to say?

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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yes, but if you go to court and lose - then they can still add the interest - but that's not the point I was raising really - what I am saying is that on one of my agreements it DOES say that they will charge interest on late payments

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Ah........

 

sorry i understand now

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Hi Ladybird,

 

It's certainly brazen to admit to charging interest on the charges!:eek: However, from the sentence you've quoted, it doesn't state what that rate of interest is, which I would argue does not amount to full disclosure of the TCC. As you know some info contained in the prescibed terms can be estimated, but the fact that in this case we are talking about interest on unlawful charges, I think a Crt would construe any interpretation very narrowly indeed against the creditor.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:)

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yes I see your point Laiste, however it is not late charges per se that are unlawful - it's just the amount they charge. So for example, you could argue that if they charged you the true cost, i.e. tuppence halfpenny;)

then they are justified in charging interest on that, because they have told you they are going to. (devil's advocating here)

I agree that the amount of interest is not stipulated.

 

But of course from another angle, in effect what they are saying is we are going to add unlawful penalty charges onto your account, and to rub salt into the wound, we are even going to charge you interest on them!

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Hi Ladybird,

 

The late pmt/overlimit charges are penalties and therefore unlawful in entirety until such time as the banks/cc's go before a Judge to provide a full breakdown of the cost.That's the only conclusion one can draw, given that they have refunded in full the total amount of charges applied to a/c's when asked, or more like forced to do so!;) You don't give refunds of the full amount of a charge if you believe them to be fair, or their alternative option is to deduct the actual processing cost from said refund!:DLOL

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:)

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One of my agreements has T&C's that says

Interest will be charged monthly for each statement period on the average daily outstanding balance including all transactions and other charges debited to the account.

This means interest can be levied on the charges for two reason. Firstly it is specifically mentioned in the 'other charges' part. Secondly it says interest is charged on the outstanding balance and once the charges are added to the balance then interest can be levied under the T&C's

 

Does that make sense?

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I was being ironic Ladybird in my last post, I thought it was obvious!:rolleyes: I understood your post about no interest rate being mentioned and your "devil's advocate" comments about charges. I was engaging in similar behaviour.......

 

Hi Joneshousehold,

 

I am going to ponder the quote from your T&C's, on first glance it certainly looks like they've covered all bases! That said, in law there are loopholes to be found in all sorts of odd places! It's time to have a poke around and see what I can find!;)

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:)

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I was being ironic Ladybird in my last post, I thought it was obvious!:rolleyes: I understood your post about no interest rate being mentioned and your "devil's advocate" comments about charges. I was engaging in similar behaviour.......

 

Hi Joneshousehold,

 

I am going to ponder the quote from your T&C's, on first glance it certainly looks like they've covered all bases! That said, in law there are loopholes to be found in all sorts of odd places! It's time to have a poke around and see what I can find, something hopefully!;)

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.:)

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Hi just out of interest I have just received a letter from Capital one with Changes to my account from June 2007 main part being an example of what my agreement will look like from then.

 

2 pages each larger than A4 of very small print I think that most of the points missing from previous versions where supplied are met in this version ie my true copy was application form.

 

I think this is something to be looked at by someone with more knowledge than me.

 

dpick:(

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dpick, we've seen this. The fact remains that if there was anything wrong with the original agreement, then they do not have any right under that agreement to impose these changes.

 

Which means that this new 'agreement' they are sending out is worthless.

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Laiste - to be honest it was a copy of the latest T&C's hence the reason why it looks like they have covered all bases. If I find an older one I will have a look at what that said. Not surprisingly none of my creditors have sent me a copy of the original T&C's yet!

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jones - i have t&c from 2003 (mbna) and that term is there.....must be a generic one I would imagine it would be on most t&c's

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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i would say thats an app, but ive been wrong before!

 

wait for someone with more knowledge to come along.

 

kenny

Me Vs AA/Blair Oliver - Defaulted on CCA, Committed Criminal Offence, started chasing payment

 

Me Vs Great Universal - Wrote off the 2k balance, couldnt supply docs

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/74209-me-littlewoods-catalogue.html

 

My Friend Vs Lowell Portfolio - Balance written off, all action stopped!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/75075-my-friend-lowell-victory.html

 

My Friend Vs Empire Catalogue - Balance Cleared

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/75713-my-friend-empire-droyds.html

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Hi, I suggest you remove this as your credit card number is there for all to see!!!

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

PS : I believe this is an application form, not a true executed agreement.

CLICK ON THE SCALES IF YOU THINK I HAVE HELPED!

 

I AM NOT SCARED ANYMORE!:rolleyes:

 

MBNA - To quote "The Carpenters", We've Only Just Begun..................;):D

HSBC - Settled.

Capital One - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) issued.

Goldfish - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) issued.

Tesco - SAR issued.

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