Black Horse PPI

[tonedepear]

Morning all.

 

I've a dumb question, so apologies if this has been covered before - I have done a search, but didn't find an answer (or at least not one I understood!)

 

I took out a loan with Black Horse Last November for 9k. I was told that I had two options, either take this loan at x% without PPI, or take this one at x-a bit% with PPI. They also stated that I'd be more likely to be accepted if I took the lower rate with PPI.

 

Is that legal then? I'm going to contact them during working hours to ask if they can cancel it, but before I do, I'm interested to know if it's legal for them to offer a lower rate solely if you take their PPI.

 

Also, does it make any difference if the loan is a secured loan?

 

Hope that makes some sense.

[reidnet]

Hi,

If you have the terms and conditions of your loan agreement I would have a good read through them first. A Secured loan can have some nasty hidden conditions, one that has come to light is that you may be liable for their Legal Costs in dealing with anything to do with the Agreement.

 

There is no harm in phoneing them and asking them for a quote on cancelling your PPI, what they offer may be a really small amount though. Take your time and dont just jump in and accept what they say.

 

I do have an FSA report on this type of offer, Reduced APR with PPI, I will have a look for it and see what it says.

 

Ian

[tonedepear]

Cheers matey. Much appreciated.

[reidnet]

Have a read through this document from the OFT re discounted APRs and PPI.. May add some fuel to the fire so to speak..

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft299.pdf

 

Ian

[tonedepear]

Sending the following letter in Monday's post:

 

Black Horse Ltd

St William House

Tresillian Terrace

Cardiff

CF10 5BH

 

Saturday 10th March 2007

RE: Account #############

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I took out the above loan for £10,000 on 13/11/07. When I took it out, I signed up for Payment Protection Insurance. I phoned up on 06/03/07 to ask to cancel it and was told I would have to put my request in writing. I am writing to complain.

 

When I took out the loan, I said I did not need the PPI as my employer provides generous illness and redundancy benefits, but I was told I should still take it out. As this is not correct, I consider that I have been mis-sold this expensive insurance, which I do not need and which I said that I did not want.

 

I have been advised that I should be able to cancel the PPI contract at any time and receive a partial refund of the premium that I have paid. I would like to do this. And in view of the way I was mis-sold the insurance, I would like to ask for a full refund of the whole premium.

 

I would appreciate a reply to this letter within fourteen days. If you reject this complaint, I would be grateful if you could explain whether you provide an internal appeals process. If you do not, please supply me with a final response letter, so that I can take up the matter with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours faithfully,

Tone

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

This is a very interesting post because it is exactly what happened to me. I have had a complaint ongoing since November 2006. I was sold the PPI in exactly the same circumstances.

 

Basically, what they are doing is mis-selling you, not only the PPI but the loan too because in effect the APR is not the rate you are quoted, it becomes much more because there are 2 separate agreements of ?% interest each. So, you are getting the loan at the APR quoted, but you are also getting an additional loan at the same APR which actually doubles up the APR. I hope this makes sense.

 

I would send the letter but quote the section in the Director General's Directive of 2000. They then dont have a leg to stand on. That is exactly what I will be doing tomorrow when I send the letter to Sunil Patel at Black Horse.

 

This is absolutely disgraceful behaviour. It seems to me as if it is almost extortion. I am glad that you posted this because it proves that this is common practice at Black Horse. I wonder how many more people have been sold loans in this way?

 

Kind regards

Annie

[tonedepear]

I had a phone call on Friday from the Centre Manager at my local black horse office, telling me he's certain that this wasn't the case (the different APRs offered depending on PPI) as for any discounted rate other than the standard to be offered, he would have personally had to sign it off. He also said he had my original paperwork in front of him and there's only record of one rate being offered. He's happy to cancel my PPI from now, and is sending me the paperwork.

 

I told him to send the paperwork, and I'd have a look. Just now, I've no idea how I'm going to progress with it, I just told him to send it on, so I have thinking time, and to see how much money I'd be fighting over if I persevere. As the loan is just a few months old, I guess it won't be too much, but we'll see...

 

[RubioConfusedio]

Hello there,

 

I am just navigating my way through the maze that is the CAG forum! It is a doddle compared to the red tape and horse doo doo that Black Horse use...

 

I have just spoken with BlackHorse regarding my loan with them and several things of interest have appeared:

 

1) although they quote APR the interest is charged monthly; therefore if you take a 'payment break' you dont pay them any money, but you are accruing an extra months interest on the outstanding balance.

 

2) Apparently according to them I have a £1500 loan over 60 months - I thought I had taken it out over less (24 months) than that, but cannot find my paperwork due to house moves etc (and I am - correction was - rubbish at retaining that sort of thing) - Would they have increased the length of the loan to cover the extra charges I have incurred by missing a few payments? (another story entirely!) The figure I pay has not changed so I am even more confused!

 

3) When I asked for a settlement figure I was given this (paraphrased) response:

 

"The outstanding amount is currently £960; the settlement would be £936"

 

When I enquired further:

 

"the actual amount outstanding is £700 but the extra £230 odd is for 'admin' charges and interest..."

 

If I pay it off next month the amount will have increased due to the way the interest is calculated.

 

I took the loan out for a short-term period - I had been working in Spain for about 18 months, so my UK bank balance was 0 and credit history was pretty poor, which is why I put up with the 49% APR, but I feel I am being royally screwed over here. I can imagine I have been quite naive, but I think I innocently assumed that a large company like this would play fair!

 

I am currently going through the process with Lloyds trying to get my charges refunded etc but have no clue where to start with Black Horse. I think it may turn out that one of the sub-clauses gives them the right to my eternal soul.

 

Can someone suggest where to start in clearing up this mess? I am now in a position to be able to pay back the loan but which I thought was pretty much paid off - now I find I still have 2/3 of the loan still outstanding after nearly 2 years with apparently another 41 months to go!

 

This is before I go into any battle regarding PPI or overcharging..

 

(one loan person has told me that PPI improves your credit rating, and my lloyds bank manager automatically put it on for me on my new credit card, even though I specifically asked not to have it, and told me I could take it off later if I didn't want it!!)

[gemspan]

Did I read this right? 49% APR!!!!! That is clearly against the law. I would have a look around and see if I can find something about companies charging extortionate interest rates. Have a look in the general debt forum. You have been shafted big style if the APR is right and I really do think you would have a good case at law for that one.

 

Annie

[RubioConfusedio]

Did I read this right? 49% APR!!!!! That is clearly against the law. I would have a look around and see if I can find something about companies charging extortionate interest rates. Have a look in the general debt forum. You have been shafted big style if the APR is right and I really do think you would have a good case at law for that one.

 

Annie

 

Well I am sending off the request for my credit agreement tomorrow, which I have been advised should be my first step, then I shall see what I should do next. Any tips from an expert??!!

[tonedepear]

Sending this letter this afternoon - I belive it tells it's own story. Any advice welcome if I've phrased it horribly or stupidly. I'll check on here before I do post it...

Black Horse Ltd

St William House

Tresillian Terrace

Cardiff

CF10 5BH

 

 

Tuesday 19th June 2007

RE: Account #############

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I took out the above loan for £10,000 on 13/11/07. When I took it out, I signed up for Payment Protection Insurance. I phoned up on 06/03/07 to ask to cancel it and was told I would have to put my request in writing. I wrote a letter outlining my dissatisfaction on March 10th of this year. After a phone conversation with the Meadowhall Centre manager, he agreed that I should at the very least be able to cancel the PPI immediately without penalty, and sent me the appropriate form to do so by return of post.

After signing this form, and returning it by hand to the office, I had no more communication from Black Horse. After the premium for the PPI was taken again in April, I contacted the Meadowhall centre by phone to ask why? They said they would send me another form to sign which I could then return. This never arrived.

On Monday 18th June 2007, I contacted Black Horse again to ask why my payment protection policy was still in force despite my repeated requests in writing and by phone to cancel it. I asked to make an appointment to see someone at the Meadowhall centre to discuss the payment protection and my loan.

When I was seen by an advisor at the Meadowhall centre, I was first of all told that to cancel the Payment Protection Insurance I would have to take a new loan – the PPI would be rebated, and then the new loan would be drawn up without the insurance added. When I questioned this initially I was told that it was much easier that way. Then I was told that in order to draw up the new loan, I would have to take some more money on top, the minimum being 10% of the current loan amount. “Basically you need to be walking out of here with some money, even if it’s only £700 or something”. Again I queried this, as I’m certain I am well within my rights requesting this insurance be cancelled without penalty, and the reason I was there at all was because I’d spent the best part of 4 months trying to cancel this insurance (which I believe was mis-sold to me in the first place).

After I had made it clear that I wished to cancel the insurance and not take out a further loan, the lady who saw me asked me to wait while she went to get the appropriate paperwork. 15 minutes later she returned with a typed letter in my name, requesting that Black Horse cancel my Payment Protection Insurance. I was slightly taken aback by this kind of ‘paperwork’ as I had written a letter in March 2007 making it abundantly clear that I wished to cancel the Payment Protection Immediately, and that I believed I had been mis-sold the insurance in the first place. I still believe this to be the case, and after yesterday being told that I had to take out a new loan of 10% higher value than the first in order to cancel the Payment Protection Insurance, a fact which I know to be untrue and I’m sure is in direct violation of some banking codes, I’m even more certain that I was mis-sold the policy in the first place.

As I made clear in my letter of March 10th, when I took out the loan, I said I did not need the PPI as my employer provides generous illness and redundancy benefits, but I was told I should still take it out. As this is not correct, I consider that I have been mis-sold this expensive insurance, which I do not need and which I said that I did not want. I also recall being offered two rates for the loan, one rate if I took PPI, and a second, higher rate if I didn’t take PPI. Whilst the Meadowhall Branch manager told me that this is not possible, after this weeks experience of bare-faced deception within the branch, I believe that my recollection is correct. In view of the way I have been treated since my initial request in March, and the way I was mis-sold the insurance, I would like to ask for a full refund of the whole premium.

I would appreciate a reply to this letter within fourteen days. If you reject this complaint, I would be grateful if you could explain whether you provide an internal appeals process. If you do not, please supply me with a final response letter, so that I can take up the matter with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

tone (livid)

[Scream121]

Hi there

 

This is a very interesting post because it is exactly what happened to me. I have had a complaint ongoing since November 2006. I was sold the PPI in exactly the same circumstances.

 

Basically, what they are doing is mis-selling you, not only the PPI but the loan too because in effect the APR is not the rate you are quoted, it becomes much more because there are 2 separate agreements of ?% interest each. So, you are getting the loan at the APR quoted, but you are also getting an additional loan at the same APR which actually doubles up the APR. I hope this makes sense.

 

I would send the letter but quote the section in the Director General's Directive of 2000. They then dont have a leg to stand on. That is exactly what I will be doing tomorrow when I send the letter to Sunil Patel at Black Horse.

 

This is absolutely disgraceful behaviour. It seems to me as if it is almost extortion. I am glad that you posted this because it proves that this is common practice at Black Horse. I wonder how many more people have been sold loans in this way?

 

Kind regards

Annie

 

 

 

I have communicated in writing to Mr Patel, and found him to be most helpful. Whilst there has been increased attention on these types of products recently, it is apparent that there is only a small amount of wrong-doing, as opposed to it being common practice within the finance industry.

 

I would suggest that before approaching any finance company in relation to PPi mis-selling, that everyone checks all their paperwork thoroughly before wasting money on postage.

[gemspan]

I have communicated in writing to Mr Patel, and found him to be most helpful. Whilst there has been increased attention on these types of products recently, it is apparent that there is only a small amount of wrong-doing, as opposed to it being common practice within the finance industry.

 

I would suggest that before approaching any finance company in relation to PPi mis-selling, that everyone checks all their paperwork thoroughly before wasting money on postage.

 

Hi

 

I read with interest your above post. Why do you think it is apparent that there is only a small amount of wrong-doing? If all the subscribers on this forum are anything to go by then this is absolutely not the case. I do believe that it is common practice within the finance industry to try and sell loans with PPI and I do believe that PPI is mis-sold every day of the year.

 

Your suggestion that people check their paperwork thoroughly before wasting money on postage seems to me to be very patronising. Perhaps you would like to post your complaint and how it was sorted. Then we can see if it has been handled "fairly".

 

Your post reeks to me of being someone who works in the financial service industry!!!!!!!

 

Gemspan

[reidnet]

Here Here Gem,

Does sound a bit like Scream121 may have something to hide, After all there are a lot of spies hanging about this forum.

 

I would suggest that before approaching any finance company in relation to PPi mis-selling, that everyone checks all their paperwork thoroughly before wasting money on postage.

 

Now that line looks all too familuar too..

 

Ian

[tonedepear]

Hi all. It's been a WHILE.

 

I've just been going through some docs on my work PC and found my PPI reclaim letters to black horse, and eventually found this thread as I recall giving up on the PPI thing back in 2007 when my personal/family life basically collapsed and I forgot all about it.

 

2 house moves down the line, I have no documents and very little memory now of what happened when I was first sold the loan with dodgy PPI with the exception of the letters (including the loan accoutn number, thankfully) and the detail I posted years ago in this thread. For ref the loan was settled in 2007.

 

My question is -

 

a: is it too late to carry on with this claim/start again?

b: where should I start. Do I need any more info than the account number and who it was with?

 

I've been trawling through the forum tonight, and I've just confused myself tbh. I just don't know where to start!

 

Any advice very very very gratefully received.

 

All the best

 

Tone

[ims21]

Hi

 

Welcome back.

 

First thing is to SAR the bank to get as much information they hold on your account. Template is in the CAG library, the link to which is at the top of every CAG page in green. Cost is £10 and they will have 40 days to comply.

 

Have a read of No.1 in my signature about single premium ppi policies.

 

Also visit the fos website and download a consumer questionnaire ready for completion.

 

Finally, no its not too late to claim this back if it was mis-sold

 

ims

[gemspan]

Welcome back. Good luck!! I've been the same....life just kinda takes over doesnt it?

 

Gemspan

[tonedepear]

Right. Here we are again. It's quite complicated so I've scanned in some documents and I have lots of questions. I've tried to work out using the single PPI spreadsheet but I just can't get the figures/calculations square in my head.

 

Firstly there were two loans with black horse.

 

Loan 1 - Car finance - Via UCAN Car Credit (oh the shame).

I have a simple agreement with them, and a full credit agreement with black horse - Who am I chasing for the PPI back? (You can even see on the BlackHorse form that it's clearly not me who ticked the "I want PPI" box, although I'm sure that wouldn't stand up in court!)

 

ONE MONTH in to Loan one I re-financed it with a secured loan from Black Horse. Did I pay for the full PPI in that figure? It looks to me like I did but am I over simplifying the numbers in the statement for Loan 1?

 

Loan 2 I got the PPI cancelled in 2006 (see top of thread, and also Black Horse Statement for Loan 2. Did I get it all back?

 

I also sold my house early on in Loan 2 just to ensure neither loan is simple! I can't work out what proportion if any of the "Rebates" on there are for PPI. Or the amount refunded when I got the PPI cancelled on loan 2. What's the "refund £220.92"? It looks like I'm refunding them?

 

It's too much for me. I'm hoping someone on here with a much bigger brain can point me roughly in the direction of what sums I need to be doing. Please. Thank you!

 

Attachments to follow:

[tonedepear]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34107[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34108[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34109[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34110[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34107[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34108[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34109[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]34110[/ATTACH]

Loan 1.1 UCAN.pdf

Loan 1.3 Statement.pdf

Loan 2.2 Statement.pdf

Loan 2.1 Blackhorse Agreement.pdf

Loan 1.2 BlackHorse Agreement.pdf

[ims21]

Hi

 

Not sure that I've got a bigger brain but I'm happy to help you with the figures but won't be around until later on this evening.

 

Post up what you've got (Remember to take out your personal info first) and I can have a look later

 

ims

[tonedepear]

Have done! (I made a bit of a mess attaching them but they're there now)

[tonedepear]

Aaargh. I've just got to work and looked and it looks like when I've saved them to PDF the quality's gone. I'm at work til 7am tomorrow, they're just about readable. If you do have a look and they're hard work I'll try re-converting them tomorrow.

[ims21]

Hi

 

I think I've got enough detail from the agreements to get you going on this.

 

This post deals with the Black Horse stuff and you will need these spreadsheets:-

 

StatIntSheet v101.xls

 

LoanAnalysis.xls

 

"StatIntSheet" will be needed to work out your claim and "LoanAnalysis" will help you with the rebate on the second BH loan.

 

OK so the first bit of finance was an HP agreement and not a loan. It was paid of by way of a personal loan after it had been running for just over a month. The total amount financed on this one was £7,077.26 made up of the vehicle of £5,823 and the PPI of £1,254.26.

 

The total interest charges on the account amounted to £4,408.42 should it run its full distance.

 

Now when this account was settled you received a rebate of £5,456.71 and on an HP agreement this would be something of the order of the future interest which has not become due yet. Now this is where we need to use a bit of logic.

 

The total interest for the whole term was £4,408.42 and yet you received a rebate in excess of that figure. So something else must have been rebated in that figure and the only thing it could be is the PPI.

 

Now the agreement had run for 35 days before it was settled so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that you should pay 35 days worth of interest on the account. Using the Rate of 31.4% this comes to £213.09 (7,077.26 x 31.4% /365 x 35). So out of the total interest of £4,408.42 we deduct the amount of £213.09 from it (i.e. that is the amount of interest we reckon should be paid out of the total) which leaves us with £4,195.33 as interest for the future.

 

So you were rebated £5,456.71 which is £1,261.38 more than the interest yet to become due and is as near as makes no odds the amount of the PPI premium. So it would seem that effectively the PPI was refunded when the HP was settled. We don't have any calculations to show the exact breakdown of the rebate given but I reckon it is not worth worrying about the PPI on this agreement since the figure we would be talking about is going to be very small. In any event, if you include this account in your complaint to the bank, they will work it out but again it is not going to be a major amount.

 

So with loan 2 this now becomes easy as we are only dealing with one account. The monthly payment of PPI was £79.25 so take hold of the StatInterestSheet and list the payments actually made (six months I think) giving the date of the payment, a description and the amount. You'll end up with a list of the six payments. The spreadsheet will work out the 8% interest you are due.

 

Now the rebate you received on cancellation of the policy was £4,375.39. Now use the LoanAnalysis spreadsheet to check what the rebate should have been. You only need to concentrate on the PPI part of the loan. Enter the loan amount (£4,629.65) the term (120) and the monthly payment £79.25 in the boxes at the top. Read down to payment no 6 and you will see that the balance should be £4,534.85 which is what you should have got back. The difference between this figure and what you actually got is £159.46. Enter this figure as the last item in your lost of payments as this is your effective overpayment of PPI on the cancellation of the policy.

 

When you have done that your spreadsheet is complete and ready to go to Black Horse together with a completed fos questionnaire.

 

Now in respect of the HSBC ones, were they all stand alone loans or did on refinance the other and do you have the stataments for these.

 

The HSBC ones will be a job for the weekend

 

ims

[tonedepear]

Wow. Thank you so much! That's an heroic effort.

 

I'll get on it tonight! (Unless anyone from work is reading this, in which case I'll get on it in my own time!)

RE - The HSBC ones, I've no idea. I don't think I've ever had a loan from them!

[tonedepear]

Just to clarify - I'm putting the £159.46 in the StatInt sheet - then claiming 8% interest on all the payments + the £159.46 overpayment back from Black Horse?

 

So 8% interest over the 5 years since 2007 works out to £249.86 + £159.46. I'm looking to reclaim £409.32?

 

Or does the interest only accrue up to the date the loan was settled?

 

Sorry!