sn00psmum (&dad) v RBS

[callumsgran]

Hi, Taff has given very good advice here if i were you i would follow it,

you are in a bit of a pickle and on asticky wicket,

Drop this particular claim and as he says start again in a couple of weeks with a new prelim with the correct figures and this is only my opinion i wouldn't bother with contractual interest just go for what you know the judge would award the 8% statutory!,( because you have to know what you are doing)

If they offer you a refund of all your charges minus interest, accept it as you are only entitled to interest anyway if it goes to court, if it doesn't then you're not!

Good luck

[livelylad]

Hi can you list briefly what you have done and the differing amounts claimed. Thank you.

[Glenn UK]

I think LL made a really good suggestion.

 

a summary of what you have done and what you are claiming would be good.

 

Keep it to around half a page of A4 if poss, ROFL Don't take offence i usually make long posts too.

 

It would be helpful if you could separate out the elements of what you are claiming and what spreadsheet you used to calculate those values.

 

Glenn

[sn00psmum]

Hi all and thanks for replying:p

 

Right, first off I totted up my bank charges which came to £7029.36, I used a simple spready for MS Word (I didn't know about this site and all it's brilliant spreadsheets then, I was on Penalty Charges), then I did a flat calculation on these charges at 8% (not realising I should have been calculating it at either their auth.(16.35%) or unauth.(29.84%) rate- newbie!) which came to £562.35 which I added onto the charges to bring the total being claimed to £7591.71. I also stated in both my prelim and my LBA* that I wished to claim compounded interest on the above amount at the RBS current unauthorised borrowing rate of 29.8%.

 

*On the day my LBA was due to be posted I received an offer of settlement of £7335.87, (around £250 short without including CCI) I wrote a letter of rejection on the basis that this was not for the full amount of the charges and debit interest and sent it along with my LBA.

 

I then began to prepare my spreadsheet for the court. Realising I would need to compile one showing calculations for alternative interest, ie statutory, I downloaded Mindzai's v1.9. This is when it dawned on me that I had claimed the wrong amount of debit interest, aaarghh! Panicking, I wrote a letter to the bank, post #19 above(which I didn't send as I wanted some opinion on it first).

 

I thought that this letter would prompt the bank to pay up what I had originally asked for when they knew that I had realised what I should have claimed was actually more! (If that makes any sense? I confuse myself!)

 

Now i'm not sure what to do- should I amend the claim in a further LBA allowing them another 14 days to respond and hope that the Sherriff sees it for the simple mistake that it was? Or do I withdraw this claim and start from scratch with the new figures in a couple of weeks' time?

 

I personally would rather do the first as the second sounds more risky to me- or is it? I also feel that I may be running out of time on this as the OFT are going to revise the guidelines next month, (aren't they?) meaning my claim figure would take a hammering.

 

Sorry if post is too long, tried to cram it all in, but everything i've done so far is in this thread.

 

V.confused now & not sure what's best to do......

SM:p BTW Glenn, what is ROFL?

[livelylad]

Ok so to clarify you have asked for the 8% in figures but also stated you wish to claim contractual interest without actually giving any figures?

 

On the day my LBA was due to be posted I received an offer of settlement of £7335.87, (around £250 short without including CCI) I wrote a letter of rejection on the basis that this was not for the full amount of the charges and debit interest and sent it along with my LBA.

Do you mean interest that they have charged you on your account?

If so is this all the interest you were charged each month? Overdraft interest can only be claimed for the amount of interest that is a direct result of a charge. It may be that they have offered you the actual correct amount. Please clarify this interest question.

 

Can you answer these for now please.

 

ROFL = roll on the floor laughing.

[sn00psmum]

Hello Livelylad,

 

In answer to your questions, no I don't mean all interest they charged on my a/c, I added the charges up and did 8% on these alone, I don't know why but this seemed like a reasonable figure then. I didn't have the resources then that I do now, ie Mindzai's spready for working out the portion of interest that would have related to charges. The interest I have been charged over the life of the a/c is much more than this- last Nov it was almost £75 for one month! I knew I couldn't claim this all back as we have obviously incurred interest charges due to the large O/D so I calculated the interest on the charges alone in the only way I knew how, just got the percentage wrong, that's all! ROFL (aah!)

 

The reason I didn't state a figure for CCI is that I didn't think you put a figure in the prelim or LBA as it's changing every day (should have though) also, this is a Scottish claim and I don't think you put the figure on the N1, just the rate (with statutory as alternative, whichever Sherriff deems appropriate) for the same reason as above- it changes daily.

 

SM:p

[Glenn UK]

I think there might be some confusion re calculating interest here.

 

When the OP (original poster said they had charged 8% it seems to me that it should be 8% per year based on the age of each charge, this would yield more than a straight 8% on the grand total.

 

if you choose to add contractual interest then this would be applied on each charge from the date it was levied until it is repaid and since you have used MINDZAIS spreadsheet then that would give the 'correct' yield.

 

So it seems to me that your figures are likely to be all to cock right now, and it might perhaps be best to take a deep breath and spend five mins confirming the values you have. If you're using MINDZAIS spreadsheet and have put all your charges and debit interest in there it will give you the following:

 

Total of all the charges

Total of all the debit interest amounts

 

Plus it will give you :

 

Interest per individual charge at contractual rate with the corresponding total for contractual interest for all charges.

 

Similarly it will yield contractual interest for each item of debit interest plus the contractual interest total.

 

In the end you will end up with total charges, total debit interest and then a value for the 8% plus a value for the contractual interest.

 

If the values you have submitted don't reflect these values then i suggest you think about restarting or accept what they have offered.

 

There is a third option which is to amend your claim and give another 14 days, but i am wary of suggesting this if you have changed tack already.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[sn00psmum]

Hi Glenn:)

 

Yes, that does help alot, apart from this:

 

There is athrid option which is to amend your claim and give another 14 days, but i am wary of suggesting this if you have changed tack already.

 

Glenn

 

This was the purpose of my letter in post #19, but I haven't sent the letter yet, just posted it on here for opinions. I haven't changed tack yet at all, as far as RBS are aware my request and figure have remained the same throughout. The only things I have sent to the bank so far are my prelim, LBA and letter of rejection of offer which all requested the same figure plus CCI.

 

SM:p

[Glenn UK]

SM

 

I was forgetting they have effectively offered you more or less what your claim was worth.

 

i realise it was not quite right, but having though about it my advice would be to write back and withdraw your claim saying something along the lines of there appears to have been an error in the calculations and you will resubmit once you have checked/corrected them.

 

Having done that, and you can do it the next day revise your prelim and start again.

 

If you had not had such a substantial offer (ie pretty close to what you are asking for) then i would stick with the options of revising and resubmitting.

 

The reasoning behind this is that if you proceed with your claim and a large amendment then it could look like you chanced your arm , they offered and then you thought hold on ill go for more.

 

For clarification, I am not suggesting in any way this is what you have done, just saying this is how it might look to an outsider.

 

It may be that you altered your claim based on your letter in post no 19 and it all goes smoothly, on the other hand whats 28 days to make sure everything is fine?

 

If you are worried about the OFT report, the only thing that could seriously damage your claim IMHO is if the OFT says their charges are lawful.

 

Snowballs and hell comes to mind.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[sn00psmum]

:D THANK-YOU!! The penny has dropped!!

 

A couple of people have suggested this approach over the last few days and I have remained indecisive as I thought a mere amendment and an extra 14 days for the bank would be deemed more than fair, also I wanted to get a few more opinions. It wasn't a case of disregarding anything I didn't want to hear as was suggested elsewhere, I just couldn't get the logic straight in my head.

 

Based on your well thought out and eloquently put logic though, I have made the decision to w/d my claim. (No disrespect to anyone else who has contributed so far, I appreciate all input!)

 

So now i'm off to write a letter and go through my spready with a fine tooth comb and will keep this thread updated as to my actions:cool:

 

Knowing me i'll be back with more daft questions shortly!!

sn00psmum:p

[sn00psmum]

Is the wording on this ok or ott?

 

We refer to recent correspondence between ourselves regarding our request for the refund of penalty charges unlawfully levied against the above-mentioned account with RBS. It has come to our attention that there may have been some miscalculations on our part resulting in errors in our claim.

We would therefore like to withdraw our claim at this time in order to correct these errors for the benefit of justice for both parties. We will resubmit our claim once the necessary amendments have been applied and we appreciate your patience in the meantime.

SM:p

[Glenn UK]

Seems fine to me,

 

Glenn

[Guest willowb]

Good luck Snoopsmum! I'm glad you got the help you needed.

 

Wxxx

[sn00psmum]

Good luck Snoopsmum! I'm glad you got the help you needed.

 

Wxxx

 

Thanks willowb and everyone who has assisted, letter will go tomorrow

SM:p

[isidore]

Glad you got everything sorted SM

[sn00psmum]

Hi all,

 

Right, some new developments....... this morning we got two separate letters from Moorcroft Debt Recovery, one 'is a formal demand for payment of overdue debt of £6188.98 prior to court action being warranted' and is addressed to hubby, the other- addressed to me is a 'notice of intended litigation' (in large bold red capitals). Both give us until 21/03/07 to pay up (same debt, but they've put a slightly different (pennies) amount on my one). I sent the letter in post #36 to RBS withdrawing my claim- albeit temporarily and it seems they have taken the opportunity to assume that the account is no longer in dispute and sold the debt on to this lot who now appear to be harrassing us.

Can they do this? Should I phone them or RBS to clarify the situation, or write to both or either? Should I report them to any of the financial authorities? I feel that I should ignore Moorcroft, write to RBS and reiterate that the account is still in dispute and that I find the fact that they've sold the debt on to be offensive and underhand. I will be submitting my new claim within a few days anyway, it's not quite ready yet- still working on the spready!

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated;) I also have a thread entitled 'interest on a loan', also in RBS section, it's not had any replies yet so advice on that would be great too!

Thanks in advance, SM:p

[sn00psmum]

Bump! Anyone about with words of wisdom?

[Seahorse]

I would write back and impress upon them the point that your letter stated you were intending to recalculate your figures before resubmitting. And say that in NO WAY was it your intention to give the impression that the account was no longer in dispute. Or words to that effect. You seem to be a dab hand at the auld letter writing, but that should be your theme.

[sn00psmum]

Thanks for that Seahorse:)

 

I will get onto my letter writing in the morning, do you think I should write to Moorcroft too? I'm worried that even if I send a letter to the bank by Special Delivery it will get lost among all the other paperwork they have to deal with and before I know it the Sherriff Officer is at the door for goods to the value! Maybe i'll phone them or see if there's a contact option on their website. Will post how I get on......

SM:p

[sn00psmum]

It's no good, I had what I wanted to write in my head so now it's done & ready to go RMSD in the morning! Any comments or tweaking suggestions welcome:D

 

Dear RBS

We refer to our letter dated 5th March 2007 in which we stated that due to miscalculations we were withdrawing our claim. We said that we would submit a new claim once we had made the necessary amendments. In NO WAY was it our intention to give the impression that the account was no longer in dispute. We are therefore extremely disappointed and distressed that we have received two separate letters from Moorcroft Debt Recovery. We enclose copies of these for your perusal, please note the discrepancies within these letters.

We are sure that this action by your organisation is contrary to FSO guidelines. We are also aware that Moorcroft are acting upon instructions from you- RBS, as their client and would therefore appreciate if you would let them know that as this account remains in dispute that they must halt this action immediately. Make no mistake that we are investigating the lawfulness of this act by RBS and are fully prepared to include it in a report to the relevant financial authorities should you choose to ignore our request. Due to it's time sensitive nature, we are not prepared to give you 14 or even 7 days to comply with this request, it must be actioned immediately. Once we are satisfied that you have received this letter we will phone Moorcroft to make sure that you have contacted them regarding this.

Our amended claim will be submitted to you in due course. Please note that any further correspondence from Moorcroft will be considered harrassment and will also be reported.

We look forward to your cooperation in this unfortunate matter.

Yours sn00psmum:p

[isidore]

Sounds good, hurry up with the spreadsheet!!

[sn00psmum]

I will T4FF, thanks! Letter sent today.

 

Love the new avatar Seahorse, very apt!

SM:p

[sn00psmum]

Well, spready done & new prelim typed up, signed, sealed & ready to go in the morning. Watch this space.............

[sn00psmum]

PANIC!!!

 

I checked that RBS had received the letter in post #45, it was delivered on 20th March. Today I phoned Moorcroft as stated in letter- they have had no instructions from RBS regarding the disputed debt.

 

The agent I spoke with requested a debit/credit card payment for the full amount over the phone. I declined saying that the entire amount was in dispute due to bank charges. He said that there was no way I had bank charges for that amount. I told him my bank charges exceed the amount in question by a substantial amount and he told me he would need this in writing before halting any action.

 

I informed him that M/croft's client, RBS had all the details of the dispute (and the fact that I had asked them to contact M/croft regarding the a/c) in writing and he said that I would have to issue a dispute notice to them also. If I ignored the letter an agent may call to collect the money or goods ttv. Then I would be liable for M/croft's costs. I told him that when my RBS claim went to court, which is highly probable that I would be able to claim any M/croft costs I had incurred as RBS had been informed that I disputed the action. He said I would certainly not be able to claim M/croft's costs back!

 

I know that I will have to phone RBS about this as even if I provide proof of the bank charges to M/croft, the bank have still not halted this action and therefore must believe it to be justified and M/croft are acting purely on instructions from RBS. I am not looking forward to the call however, i'm not great at keeping calm on the phone and i'm not sure what to say. I would prefer to communicate with them via email as it's all down in writing then, does anyone know of a contact email that may work? I'd like to be armed with the facts about how lawful/unlawful this action by them is but I don't know these facts or where to start looking for them.

 

Should I send details of the entire claim to M/croft, they want proof of charges equalling the 'debt' or should I bypass them and just deal with RBS, after all, my issue is with them, so is the amount in question and I just felt as though I was going round in circles during the call with M/croft, they were not prepared to listen to me. Anything I DO send to them would need to be sent Special Delivery as it's extremely time-sensitive (their letter of 14/03 gives me 7days to settle in full!) and for my own peace of mind, but so far i've spent a fortune on postage on this claim, not to mention other materials and my time and I really don't see why I should indulge them any further.

 

Any advice anyone?

SM:p

 

Ooh, forgot to say, amended claim submitted- new prelim went on 19th!

[Glenn UK]

If moorcroft are acting on behalf of the bank then its their problem not yours.

 

If you have been dealing with the bank and have dipsuted the account balance formally then its up to the RBS to inform moorcroft, you are under no obligation to provide them with the info, your debt belongs to the bank and you have informed them.

 

Re costs you can relciam anyhting you legitimately incur duing the prosecution of your claim a) if you win and b) bearing in mind the limitations on litigants in person relciaming costs/track etc.

 

So in a nutshell, moorcroft have to go back to thier masters.

 

if they instigate action against you whilst the account is in dispute then they are loiable to have the cost of that reclaimed by you. I wold also suggest they may be liable for damages, defamation etc if they instigate dmaages bearing inmind te postion with the bank.

 

Somehtig else comes to mind have you actually written to them saying this account is in dispute?

 

I have started to recommend to people to be very explicit inthis respect, if you havent i would just wirte a letter, with a sinlge line, two at the most something like

 

'For the avouidance of doubt i wish to confrim formally that the balance on this account is in dispute and will continue to remian so until firther written notice.'

 

There can be no doubt of your intent by the bank, moorcroft or the courts should you ever need to establish your intent in this respect.

 

Speaking practically about the moorcroft though and getting them off your back, i guess you have two choices, send them all the info.

 

Or tell them to bogg off and go speak to thier masters.

 

Id go the latter, you do what you want.

 

JMHO

 

 

Glenn