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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Smellipants v Abbey


Smellipants
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Hi Folks,

 

Thought it was time I posted here - have been meaning to do this for 6 months or so but only just got around to getting the parachute accounts up. :p

 

Still in the early stages, but details so far are:

 

1) 15th Jan 2007 - Initial Letter sent

2) 24th Jan 2007 - Standard Letter received from Abbey (Andrew Nanson, Business Manager) saying they will write to me within the next 4 weeks.

3) LBA Sent 30th Jan claiming £1901.47 - they have until 14th feb.

4) £245 of 'Miscellaneous Fee Repayments' turn up in my account 1st Feb. (Assuming GOGW, but waiting for letter).

5) GOGW letter received saying they would pay £230 back. (Not sure why they overpaid but hey-ho!).

6) Response sent stating I accept the money as partial payment and will proceed with the court claim.

7) N1 form sent to court claiming £988.50 + 16.90 Contractual Interest (-£245 GOGW).

8) Court papers served on Abbey on 28th Feb - they have until 14th march to respond.

9) Abbey decided to defend - defense papers received this morning. 24th March.

10) AQ Submitted

11) Notice of Pre Trial review received - date 13th July.

 

To be continued.....

 

PS. Must just say a big thanks to this website for giving 'Joe Public' the confidence to get their money back, and a congratulations to everyone who has successfully challenged the banks so far!

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Hmmz - think I may have made an error :|

The prelim letter I sent, I think had the 8% interest rather than the overdraft interest.

 

In the letter it said

"What I require

I calculate that you have taken £988.50 plus £182.14 which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £1170.64.

 

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter"

 

Looking back at the spreadsheet I used, I think this is actually the 8%

I'm a bit confused now - should the interest mentioned in the prelim letter just be compound interest? Should I redo my charges using a different spreadsheet (Like the one from Mindzai), and resubmit a new prelim, or can I change the amount I'm claiming in the LBA?

 

Sorry for being a doofus - I must've read through the stickies, notes, templates on this site over and over before submitting - I think my head was going around in circles when I submitted my prelim :o

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Smellipants, don't worry, just modify the schedule of charges when you send the LBA. So what about the actual figures ?

 

First, you said "I think" quite a few times, so probably worth double checking whether your current figures are using 8%. Get a calculator, pick any one of your charges and work out : charge x no. days * 0.08/365 If the calculator and the spreadsheet show the same interest figure, you've obviously used 8%.

 

Second, decide what form of contractual interest (which is calculated compound) you want to claim : either the exact interest they charged which means taking into account your changing balance or applying their overdraft rate (either authorised or unauthorised) to each charge. As you say, there are different spreadsheets which do either. Regards, Mad Nick

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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Hi Nick,

 

Many thanks for the info. It definitely was calcuated using an 8% spreadsheet.

I've decided I'll try to claim for interest at their unathorised overdraft rate, and the spreadsheet from Mindzai seems to take care of that nicely.

Just one other question before I send the LBA: Do I need to state that I've changed the amount I'm claiming from the prelim, or do I just enter the new amount in the LBA and let them work it out?

 

Thanks again.

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Smellipants, I changed to contractual from Prelim to LBA and I said : "...... my original calculation (attached to my letter dated ******) failed to compound daily the interest which is how I now understand that you levied interest on my charges (which were unlawful)." Hope this helps. Regards, Mad Nick

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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Yesterday I received £245 of 'Miscellaneous Fee Refunds' in my account.

No letter arrived in the post yet, so assuming GOGW.

 

Will wait another couple of days, if nothing shows I'll give them a call asking them to explain what the money is.

 

From reading other posts, I believe the correct thing to do is (if I receive the GOGW letter) to reply stating I accept the money as partial payment and proceed with the court stage - can someone confirm? Thanks! :)

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Smellipants.

From reading other posts, I believe the correct thing to do is (if I receive the GOGW letter) to reply stating I accept the money as partial payment and proceed with the court stage - can someone confirm? Thanks!
Correct.

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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OK, well I received the GOGW letter today, and initially I was going to respond using a letter like this one (that I nabbed from another post :p ):

 

Dear [named sender or Sirs]

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xx and settlement offer of £XXX. I understand you have already credited my accouint with this amount.

 

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account,

 

I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder. As notified in my letter before action dated xx/xx/xx, I will be issuing a claim in the County Court on xx/xx/xx

 

I will be willing to withdraw my claim upon receipt of unconditional full settlement of my claim.

 

I trust this clarifies my position.

 

Yours faithfully

 

That is, until I read a post from JonCris saying that "A 'goodwill' payment is not an offer of settlement, unless stated. In which case it is not a 'goodwill' payment it is an offer of part or whole 'settlement'

 

A 'goodwill' payment is a payment intended to restore 'goodwill'

 

If the banks, in their attempts at being smart, want to call them 'goodwill' without qualification then they cannot later claim them to be in part or whole settlement of the claim

 

Write & thank them for their 'goodwill' payment which is much appreciated whilst asking when can you expect full & final settlement of your claim"

 

Taking that into account, would anyone be able to help me draft a letter accepting their GOGW and saying that I will be pursuing my claim as intended? (I'm not very good at drafting these sorts of letters and don't want to give them any loopholes they can use against me ;-) )

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I'm just preparing to get my N1 form ready for this Wednesday, and I have a question about the Daily Rate.

 

My claim (when the LBA was sent) is for:

£988.50 Charges

£912.97 Contractual Interest @ 28.70%

£1901.47 Total.

 

I used the Mindzai spreadsheet to work out the interest,but I think I'm getting a bit confused about the daily rate.

If I open the spreadsheet as of today, it calculates that I'm owed £1919.47.

- If I change the date on my PC to tomorrow, and then reopen the spreadsheet it calculates that I'm owed £1921.69

A difference of £2.22 for 1 day.

 

- On the spreadsheet itself, it says the daily rate is £0.69

 

- But also, if I use this formula '£1919.47 x 28.7 / 100 = £550.88. divide this by 365 which gives you £1.51', it comes out as something different again.

 

I'm confused :S Is there anyone that can advise on which of the above 3 rates I should be using? I'd like to make sure it was as accurate as possible, and I know I'm probably being really stupid >.

 

Many Thanks in advance for your help! :)

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Smelli, it's damn confusing, isn't it. If you're up for it, I'll explain what's going on.

 

First, at an annual rate of 28.7%, the daily rate of compound interest is 0.00069151 = 0.069151% (I can bore you with the formula if you want). You say the spreadsheet says £0.69 - it's either a coincidence or wrong.

 

Second, the £/day is not fixed. With compound interest, there is no fixed £/day interest because each day there is interest on previous interest. In the jargon, the interest increases exponentially not linearly ie for one charge :

amount of interest = charge x (1+0.00069151)^days since the charge - charge

I bet the spreadsheet is right : your total interest increased by £2.22 due to the extra day.

 

In summary, for contractual (compound) interest, forget any notion of a daily rate in £/day - it's an exponential formula. Hope I've not confused you.

 

Regards, Mad Nick

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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lol - ever wished you never asked something? :D

 

OK, so If I should forget about a £/day daily rate, do I put on my N1 that interest will accumulate at a %/day daily rate until settled? And then use the daily rate of 0.069151% that you mentioned in a previous post?

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Smellipants, if I were you I'd just put "interest increasing at 28.7% pa, the Defendant's unauthorised overdraft rate, from the date of each charge until the date of Judgement or earlier settlement by the Defendant."

 

But are you sure you can justify that rate ? I'm not saying don't do it - on the contrary, it's up to you - but you need to think very worst case possibilities eg the remote possibility of having to argue the basis for it in Court. Have you read GlennUK's thread and the one in General "..... the Judge doesn't think so" ? I'm not trying to put the wind up you - but this is potentially serious stuff - I couldn't just leave it as "use 28.7%" without making sure you're going in with your eyes open. Regards, Mad Nick

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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Hi Nick - thanks for the advice - much appreciated as always!.

I'm caught between claiming the unauthorised rate and the 8%. I think I'd be happy with 8% but obviously the temptation is always there to go big.

I'd been following Glenn's case and it obviously raised concerns that it's nowhere near a cut and dry situation. The thing is, because I've asked for the 28.7% in my LBA, should I stick to my guns and follow it through (maybe I'll get a nice judge :p), or do you think I should back off and go for statutory? Is it possible to change your stance midway through and just claim the statutory in the claim form, after an LBA asking for Contractual?

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Smelli, there might be a middle way depending on your particular circumstances. If you had/have an overdraft and were mostly in the red, then you'd have a strong case, in my opinion, to claim back the interest they took (at the authorised overdraft rate) rather than levying a particular rate on them.

 

The (my) logic would go that :

  • they levied and you paid the charges through a "mistake of law" (the basic argument that they turn out to be unenforceable in law);
  • they levied and you paid interest on those charges which must, therefore, derive from the same basic "mistake of law";
  • the law of restitution allows reversal of the above; ie the Defendant's "unjust enrichment through a mistake of law" of the charges + interest;
  • the killer case supporting this seems to be Deutsche Morgan v Inland Revenue

I certainly wouldn't include all that in my N1 - I would just say that you are claiming interest at the authorised overdraft rate, and then see what happens.

 

So, there you go, 3 choices 28.7%, 16.9%, 8% (simple). Regards, Mad Nick.

 

PS I see no reason not to change your claim between LBA and N1.

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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Anyone know if my court fees take interest into account? My basic amount that I'm claiming is £988.50, so obviously if I include either compound or 8% on that, it'll take it into the next bracket of court fees (£120).

If the fees are only charged on the basic amount then it'll be £80 - please could someone confirm?

 

Also, they put a GOGW of £245 (even tho they stated £230) in my account. I should take this £245 off of my most recent charges and submit the claim for £743.50 (plus interest) - does that sound right?

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Smelli, you're going to love this. If you are claiming just the 8%, then the Court fee is just worked out against just the charges you are reclaiming. If you are reclaiming contract interest then the Courts seem a bit confused - some people have got away with the Fee relative to the charges, but others have been nabbed for the Fee relative to the charges + interest. You get it back either way, but of course £80 is £80.

 

As for the GOGW, you should reduce your total claim by £245 and make crystal clear on the front of the N1 that that's what you've done. But don't remove £245 worth of charges from your schedule because that way you'll also lose the interest on them. So your claim is £988.50 + interest - £245. Regards, Mad Nick

PS I promise I didn't tell everyone else that only I'm allowed to reply to your posts !!!

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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Thanks for all your help Nick.

Have submitted the N1 today for £988.50 + 16.90% Contractual Interest (-£245).

A little later than planned, and had to do it by post as my wife and I have trouble getting into town during the day, but I'll update the thread as things unfold! :)

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Abbey decided to defend (suprise!), and I received the defense in the post this morning, so just waiting for the AQ to arrive.

 

Just out of interest, I note that on a lot of the other threads I've looked at, Abbey have offered a 50% settlement. Does this letter arrive within the same as the defense paper? If not (assuming Abbey have not offered a 50% settlement), is this out of the norm or am I just being paranoid? ;)

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Hi, yes the 50% offer to me was in the letter attaching their defence. Maybe they have a CAG detection device and only bother with people who might give in. Regards, Mad Nick

Abbey £8370 settled 17 Apr 07

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