First Direct and fraudulent use of Google Pay ***RESOLVED BY FIRST DIRECT***

[crv]

I opened an “Unauthorized purchase claim” with Google.

They have investigated and said there is nothing wrong with the transactions.

I can't find a phone number or email address to ask for details of these transactions or the Google Pay account that was used.

Can you help please.

[lolerz]

Were the charges made via Debit or Credit card in the end?

[fkofilee]

Hi @crv

 

You need to expand a little bit more - What purchases were made? Are they for Google Associated Services or Google Pay being used for 3rd party products. 

If TPP - Then you need to speak to your bank. They can actually blacklist the device using Google Pay if a cards NFC Token / Virtual Card has been compromised. 

 

Lets us know so we can provide appropriate advice. 

[crv]

I opened the account with First Direct in May 2021 mainly to receive and pay money from eBay and PayPal. I left the overdraft limit at the default value of £50 thinking that would stop any large fraudulent withdrawals. I have a debit card. Since July 21 the balance in the account has been somewhere between £200 and £550.

On 5^th March 2024 I received an unexpected text message from FD saying that I needed to clear the overdraft on the account to avoid interest payments. On checking the account I found that there had been 2 payments to Distri Elec Kourou, the first was for Eur 98 and the second was for Eur 769, this put the account £402 overdrawn. This company is a distributor of electrical equipment in French Guiana. They also use the name Worldelec Guyane.

I spoke a FD representative about this fraud. I was told this account was linked to Google Pay and that I was sent an activation code on 8^th October 2023. I have no recollection of having received that code, who else did they send it to? I don’t have, and never have had, Google Pay and the person I spoke to said I wouldn’t be able to have Google Pay as I have an iPhone.

[lolerz]

The bigger issue here is FD fobbing you off re: Fraud.

Google is not your target here, FD is. They should have immediately frozen the card and removed Google Pay's authority to take payments as soon as you reported it.

You need to call them NOW and get put through specifically to their fraud team (not some jobbie in the general customer service) and get them to freeze the card.

You should also demand that they raise a chargeback immediately for the 2 charges. This should be trivial as they're euro payments and you're in the UK. 
 

[dx100uk]

retitled and moved to First Direct Forum.

 

[fkofilee]

As thought - Need to speak with FD / HSBC to raise a fraud case and understand what happened. 

Makes me wonder if youve been a victim of SIM Swap Fraud? 

[crv]

I spoke to FD 9 minutes after receiving the text message. He stopped that card and has sent me a new one which I have received. He said they wouldn't refund me as it looked like my fault. He put me through to customer relations to raise a complaint when I belly-ached at his refusal. I followed this up with an email confirming my complaint.

Within the last half hour I have had customer relations phoning me back saying they won't refund me. My fault, they sent me a letter saying my card had been linked to Google Pay. She also agreed that I couldn't have Google Pay on my iPhone.

I asked what about the fact that one of the transactions took the account £400 overdrawn, way above the agreed limit of £50. She said that a payment that took the account over the limit was deemed to be a request to temporarily increase the limit so it was allowed. I sent her away to find where it said that in the T&Cs and to let me know how to escalate the complaint.

[crv]

I can't find anywhere in the T&Cs where it says they will allow temporary un-arranged overdrafts. I got this in the written response to my complaint.

"you can request an overdraft in the following ways. Arranged overdrafts may be requested in advance and will be agreed and authorised, subject to status, until further notice. Unarranged overdrafts may be requested by presenting a debit for payment, such as an ATM withdrawal, card payment, cheque, Direct Debit or standing order, when there is not enough money in your account or available overdraft limit.

In response to customer feedback we do offer a degree of flexibility, subject to previous account conduct, to give access to funds in an emergency and prevent the possible embarrassment and inconvenience caused when payments are rejected. As such, there are times when payments will be authorised without sufficient funds being available."

My next plan is to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service unless anyone knows anything better.

[lolerz]

Have the chargebacks been raised for the payments?

[crv]

Surely FD wouldn't do that as they don't consider the payments fraudulent. Is there some way that I can insist that they do?

[lolerz]

What gave you that idea?

You've reported the payments as fraud, they've admitted as such by freezing and reissuing the card.

Get them to chargeback. Demand it, don't ask for it.

[crv]

I have emailed the merchant asking what was purchased and where it was  delivered. I'm going to send the below to the bank unless anyone can suggest any improvements. Thanks.

 

Case ID:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Please raise chargebacks for these two fraudulent payments.

In your Terms and Conditions item 13 you say that you will refund unauthorised payments unless you can show that I have acted fraudulently or been extremely careless. I have never lent my card or divulged my password to anyone. I don’t have a Google Pay account on my phone, twice I have been told by you that I can’t have one as it is an iPhone.

Please email a copy of the letter that you sent stating that my card had been added to my digital wallet and a note of the address to which it was sent.

During the period between the dates that the Google Pay account was set up and the two fraudulent transactions the account balance ranged from £558 and £342 in credit and there were 59 outgoing payments. Of these payments 22 were below £2, 34 between £2 - £20 and 3 between £20 -£30. The minimum being £0.24 and the maximum £29.45. These disputed payments were in Euros, both on the same day, both to the same business in French Guiana (that’s in South America), one was for £84.06 and the other for £659.65 which took the account £402 overdrawn. If your fraud detection software didn't query these transactions it needs updating as it is unfit for purpose and I shouldn’t be penalised because of this. In you leaflet CK-HP-FDUYCB PR309 (v9) 12/20 you say

“When you make an online purchase with your first direct debit or credit card, you may be asked to enter a one-time passcode if we need to check that your purchase is genuine. We’ll send the passcode by text message”

I did not receive a passcode on this occasion, in the past I’ve had them for as little as £1.83

Nowhere in the T&Cs does it say anything about making a payment when there are insufficient available funds being construed as requesting an unapproved overdraft. It should have been declined or, at the very least, queried.

 

[lolerz]

Good minus the bit about their payment verification.

That's if you pay through the card DIRECTLY. Google Pay works a bit like Paypal where a continuous payment authority is paid out and then authorised via Google's login.

You're still covered by chargeback, the only difference is that Google acts as the merchant bank in this case instead of the company's bank.

 

[crv]

I can leave the bit in about the account transaction history but remove the reference one-time passcode verification?

[lolerz]

Yep

 

[crv]

Edited and sent

[crv]

I had a reply from FD, again denying liability for allowing the overdraft.

They quoted a chunk of section 16 from the T&Cs, it's nothing like section 16 in the T&Cs that I have.

I've sent them a photo of my version.

[lolerz]

Raise a formal complaint with them then. With the aim of getting it deadlocked and going to the ombudsman

[crv]

This is the latest email from the bank.

Do I ask them how I was supposed to know that the T&Cs booklet that they sent me was a work of fiction and that I need to go to some website to find what the real T&Cs are? or do I go straight to the FOS?

"Thank you for your response.

The information can be found in our Account Terms and Conditions under section 16. This can be located at: www.firstdirect.com/legals/terms-and-conditions/

There is nothing further I am able to add on this matter and should you remain unhappy, you can refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Details on how to do this are below."

[crv]

Happy ending to this.

I tried to query these transactions with Google, it's completely impossible, the phone numbers given only refer you to the useless FAQs on the website and there is no "chat" option. 

I messaged the merchant asking for details of these transactions and got no reply.

After a about 10 days I asked FD again to do a chargeback this time she said that she would investigate further and come back to me in a couple of hours, which she did.

She said that they have reversed their decision and the money would be back in my account within 5 hours.

It was! 

I still find it worrying that the bank will allow an unauthorized overdraft, which is way out of character for this account, without prior warning.

[lolerz]

Good news!

 

Just to confirm, FD have removed any fees and interest too?

[crv]

There weren't any fees or interest. I paid enough in to the account to cover the overdraft as soon as they told me so that wouldn't be any arguments later on. 

[lolerz]

 Congrats on the win!

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