Taking a breeder to small claims court

[Irena]

Anyone know of any successful (or not) examples if taking a breeder to small claims? Any pitfalls to look out for? I'm considering action.

 

Also, is there a threshold at which they'd be considered a business (as opposed to a private seller), i.e a number of litters or something?

[Irena]

Thanks @dx100uk

 

In this case, the disease was diagnosed within 6 months of purchase and it's my understanding that the seller would need to prove that it was not pre-existing according to CRA 2015 (the probability of it not coming from the seller's house is very small).

 

Citizen's Advice said that I could argue for a "discount" on the purchase price on the basis of quality and that a replacement/repair would be a major inconvenience.

 

Any thoughts on that would be welcome!

[Irena]

Well, I wanted to do it in a way that a person in question wouldn't find this, but I guess that will be difficult.

 

A few weeks after homing, the pet I'm talking about was diagnosed with Feline Infectious Peritonitis. about 80% of cats have coronavirus (in this particular case the likelihood that the kitten wasn't already infected when homed is very unlikely, and imo the seller would need to produce test results on their cats to prove otherwise), but in about 5-10% it mutates into the actual disease.

 

Not a lot is known about why the mutation occurs, but there's usually a stressful event, faulty immune system, in some cases a genetic predisposition. Up till very recently, it was a death sentence, but I got a hold of some experimental meds and the cat is doing fine for now (those meds are not covered by insurance, but well, things we do for family).

 

Regarding the seller, long story short is that he blocked me.

They have more litters a year than what I'd be normally comfortable with but he came highly recommended, registered etc.

 

my argument is that I paid above average price for this kitten.

If I bought a Rolex, I wouldn't expect it to break after a few weeks, just as I wasn't expecting 90+ vet visits in the first 5 months of ownership, and IMO it's not what that "reasonable" person (per CRA) would expect either.

 

It's my understanding that as the "fault" appeared within 6 months of purchase, it would be presumed to be pre-existing at the time of purchase unless the seller is able to prove otherwise.

[Irena]

Thanks @dx100uk

 

Could someone argue that (and I'm going to use an actual good because it's easier to imagine) say I bought a new boiler and it broke down over Christmas. I then contact the seller saying "the boiler is broken, I'm getting it fixed because it's cold and I need it fixed asap" and use my insurance, and then ask the seller for a discount (which is, admittedly, lower than the cost of fixing the item). 

 

Could they argue that I should've given them a chance at repair, it was my choice that I fixed it at my own expense, and as such I don't have any further rights? 

 

Obviously it was different with a living animal that would be gone within (literally) a couple of days if I didn't start treatment, so I'll never regret going down that route.

[Irena]

 

@honeybee13 - yes, I read that and the seller follows a couple of those recommendations, but not all. The file feels a bit outdated too because it's talking about SGA instead of CRA, and there are a few things around liability that don't sound right to me.

 

@dx100uk 

Well, even in those circumstances, I guess I could still just go back to basics and argue quality (I'd expect better quality of item X considering the money I paid)? Without necessarily claiming for vet costs.  

 

@hightail Diagnosed about 8-10 weeks after purchase (I'd need to count exactly). Didn't come with insurance, but I bought it. Ideally I'd want to claim for at least a discount in purchase price + excess, as repair/replacement would be a major inconvenience (that was the advice from Citizen's Advice).

 

Re: the fact that they couldn't have known, I think that by that logic any trader could get away with selling any faulty goods because "how could they know that this fridge was going to break a few weeks after purchase?" 

 

 

[Irena]

Yes, registered with GCCF. They were recommended by so many people, I probably ignored some of the red flags, including the insurance piece. Hindsight is a great thing.

[Irena]

And this is exactly what I wanted! I want to make sure that if I do take action (and I'm still not sure), what I'm saying actually makes sense.

 

The kitten was 12 weeks but that's something that GCCF will hear about in a separate complaint, just need to get the paperwork together and send it off. 

 

Re: "You don't get to keep the goods and get your money back though",  it looks like it is a second tier remedy (Keep the goods and get a reduction in price), for example looking at the flow chart on p. 31 here: https://www.businesscompanion.info/sites/default/files/CRA-Goods-Guidance-for-Business-Sep-2015.pdf 

So I think I could argue that 1st tier remedies at this point would be a major inconvenience and go to 2nd tier remedies instead.

[Irena]

 

Sale too young is not a problem, but I think that for sale of a sick kitten they might want a post-mortem (?) which hopefully I won't be able to do. The kitten is doing well so far on the experimental (although unlicensed) meds

[Irena]

 

Sorry, I meant that filing a complaint for sale too young isn't a problem. The kitten was actually sold on the day of the second vaccination.

[Irena]

 

Still (and someone please correct me if my reasoning is wrong) under CRA if I buy said "fridge", it works fine for 10 weeks (is healthy) and then stops working (gets sick), the fault would be presumed to be preexisting and the seller would have to prove otherwise

[Irena]

Well, to be honest, if they're able to show clear titre tests, I'll hold my hands up and be glad that (hopefully) no one else will have to go through the same nightmare as I did

[Irena]

I mean, what's the worst that can happen? (and that's a genuine question - what's the worst that can happen?)

 

Also, if anyone has any other thoughts, please share!

[Irena]

Thanks @dx100uk - are you able to link details on this?

 

If I just go with purchase price discount + insurance excess, that will be under £1k

If I go with the above + vet fees that would be probably about £4k if not slightly more (they can't make me claim on insurance I think), but most likely under £5k

Any other thoughts of wisdom / what to look out for etc would be also very much welcome!

[Irena]

I thought the Sale of Goods Act was replaced by Consumer Rights Act? 

 

Also, can you elaborate re: "the usual rules of contract"? 

I have a contract with the seller but it includes terms which are limiting my rights under CRA especially around some of the things we've been talking about, so presumably it wouldn't hold up.

[Irena]

25 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

You haven't told us how much your losses are

 

If I just go with purchase price discount + insurance excess, that will be about £1k

(if this is not what you meant, let me know)

[Irena]

£105 insurance excess. Citizen's Advice told me that I could argue that tier 1 remedies would be a major inconvenience (repair/replace) and that I could argue for tier 2 remedies, one of which means that you can keep the product but get a discount on the purchase price.

[Irena]

Admittedly I could just decide the whole thing is not worth the hassle and write it off as lesson learnt  But I wanted to explore my options 

[Irena]

8 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

As you have probably gathered, I think the whole industry of breeding animals need sorting out and probably shouldn't exist at all. I'm sorry that anyone goes ahead and buys these animals when there are so many abandoned animals available to be rehomed. I'm afraid this includes you.

 

I'm not going to argue on this point. I never had a cat before and a thought of starting with a kitten sounded less intimidating. I did approach rescues, but unfortunately the moment you tell them that you'd prefer a kitten to be mainly indoors (and let's not go into the whole indoor vs outdoor thing), it becomes difficult, no matter how many fancy shelves etc you install or how many hours of playtime you can provide to enrich their environment. So believe me, it wasn't a spur of the moment decision   Anyhow, I rather agree with what you said and would probably try to do things differently in hindsight.