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    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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N244, Eviction date 20/08, Time to sell


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Hello, I hope someone here can help me. After having fought eviction successfully 4 times we have again fallen behind with 2 payments on our suspended repossession order, this time due to urgent works (collapsed drain) that had to be carried out whether we wanted or not as it was backing up into the house.We can prove that with paid invoice.

 

Long story cut short we want to put an end to this vicious cycle and sell the house ourselves, having had estate agents here over the weekend confirming that the house is worth more than we owe. And they think it should sell quickly because apparently there is a shortage of houses of this size in our area.

 

We have the money to bring the arrears up to date prior to the eviction BUT that's all we have - I worry that if we pay it and the Judge does not allow us to sell ourselves we have no money left to find a place to stay, as there are 4 children aged 10-16 in the property that is a very worrying scenario.

 

Can someone please give me advice:

Do we pay in the arrears and take such a huge risk or can we eg turn up at the Court with the cash in hand?

Is there any sample N244 around on here which quotes any relevant cases as I am mightily confused which ones would be the appropriate ones for our case?

 

I really hope that someone is online who can point me in the right direction as the last Judge firmly told us not to bother coming back...

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I have alerted the site team to your post, you shouldn't use a sample N244, you need one specific to your needs.

 

I would offer the payments to the mortgage company first and then go for the charges on the account, that would give you time.

 

If you do go back to court a 5th time you can also let the Judge know you are selling, have everything from the estate agents ready and it would help if you had an offer or two already.

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Put your case clearly and simply, don't use legal language as you could lead yourself into further trouble.

 

Basically state

 

I xxx have three children aged between x and x, their education would be severely disrupted by an eviction.

 

The arrears recently arose due to essential maintenance of the drains outside the property. Had this work been left undone it would have caused the property to become unsafe to live in and caue further damage. (include the invoices).

 

We are appointing an Estate Agent to sell the property, a recent valuation (include the paperwork) would prove that the value is sufficient to completely clear the outstanding mortgage account.

 

There are a lot of arrears fees, legal fees and other fees on the account which can be reclaimed and should help offset part of the mortgage.

 

Keep it as simple as possible and good luck.

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@ sillygirl1: Thank you. We have spoken to Kensington almost daily but they insist on all arrears (20K+) cleared in order to stop the eviction and we can only clear the arrears on the payments which formed part of the suspension (2 months). So with the eviction set for Thursday I am not in the position to speak to the lender anymore. Thank you for your help.

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Offer the 2 months to them in writing (email is fine) then you have a trail of how they are continually making things difficult for them.

 

Try NOT to phone them as you won't have any records of what they say. If you do phone back it up with an email stating date and time of call (and duration of call), who you spoke to and what was said on either side (a synopsis will be fine). Again you will have a record of their behaviour.

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Thank you so much. I have sent the email but I don't expect them to reply. It has been said on numerous threads that case references are helpful, but I have tried to follow them through and found it all very confusing. Should I physically pay the money into the mortgage account or hold onto it in case the decision is not in our favour? I know that this is a difficult one but any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

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I would physically pay it, that way you can prove to the Judge how time wasting the continuing eviction proceedings are. Print out proof it has been paid and take it to the court.

 

When you go to court you could ask for the judge to not award costs to the mortgage lender and ask for them to refund you any costs they already have added after the previous eviction hearing.

 

Others will help but this is holiday period so people may not be online as much.

 

Any news?

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Well we have taken the advice and paid the money in... we will file the N244 first thing in the morning. I thought since we absolutely have to get the witness statement right it might be a good idea to wait if someone is around here later in the day.Thank you so much for your help thus far.

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Hi, do you have a copy of the contract with the estate agent ?

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Hi, yes - I have a Confirmation of Marketing complete with Initial Marketing Price. The brochure is ready, too and it will be live tomorrow. Is that likely to be sufficient?

 

Thank you.

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It will certainly help - are you able to make any payments while the house in in the process of being sold?

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Yes. We have a payment agreement from the last (suspended) eviction which we have brought up to date today, including the payments towards arrears, just August to pay now which we have to pay by the end of the month. And will. We can then continue the original agreement until the house is sold. We only fell short because of the drain works.

 

On the N244, would I ask for a Suspension of Eviction or an Adjournment of the case ...or the Right to sell the property first? And would I give reasons on the form or would I go with a Witness Statement? Thank you very much for your help.

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Hi, you should ask for suspension of eviction. Have a look at my guide here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?325527-CAG-guide-Are-you-facing-eviction-or-repossession - page 16 shows an example of a witness statement for the N244 application - 14 &15 shows how to complete the form.

 

You will need to affix a copy of the bill for drainage , the estate agent contract, advert or brochure and also proof of the payment you made today.

 

Have a go at the wording for the statement and if you'd like us to look it over, post on here.

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When was the last suspended possession order? Have you reduced the arrears since the order?

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Here it goes, any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks...

 

We are the defendants in this case and respectfully request the court to consider the following information when hearing our application:

The changes in circumstances which led to the most recent suspension of eviction are still ongoing and we are able to afford the repayments which were agreed.

The arrears in June and July arose due to essential maintenance of the drains outside the property. Had this work been left undone it would have caused the property to become unsafe to live in and cause further damage. Please see the attached invoice for confirmation. This was a lot of money that we had to find in addition to ongoing expenses and we have informed the lender about the situation. We also promised that we would make the missing payments up which we have now have done.

We therefore have brought the arrears down since the last hearing.

Despite keeping the Claimant advised of the situation and making the offer to repay the arrears, they have refused to negotiate and demanded the full arrears to be paid in order to stop eviction.

We believe that it is best to use the current change in the property climate to sell the house and settle the mortgage account in full.

 

We have appointed an Estate Agent to sell the property; their valuation proves that the value is sufficient to completely clear the outstanding mortgage account including all fees. Furthermore we have been advised that the property is likely to sell quickly because there is a shortage of properties of this size in the area.

We believe that it would be beneficial to all parties if we were given the opportunity to sell the house ourselves as we are likely to achieve a price which is high enough to settle the mortgage account in full whereas the cost of an eviction and repossession/ auction would be likely to leave a family of six at the verge of bankruptcy.

There are four children aged 10-16 living in the property, one of whom is starting Sixth Form, another who is starting GCSEs, one starting Secondary School and one in his last year of Primary School education. Their education and opportunities to do well in school would be severely compromised if an eviction could not be avoided.

We assure the Court that we remain committed to making the monthly mortgage payments plus payments towards arrears as set out in the most recent Court order.

We would also like to point out that we have tried hard to reach an agreement with the lender even after the eviction date had been set.

We believe the above to be true and factual.

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You should insert the paragraph

" Therefore we respectfully ask the court to consider S.36 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 when considering our application"

this should be inserted after the para starting We assure the court that we remain..........

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When you take the N244 to court, make sure all your attachments are securely fixed together. Take a copy of it all before handing it in so you have a set to refer to in the hearing. You will need to pay the court fee in cash

 

Also ask the court if they have any duty legal advisers on the day of your hearing, if so you can approach them for advice and they can accompany you into the hearing to support you.

Help us to keep on helping

Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums

 

 

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My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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