UK debt being charged and mabe enforced in Italy - please help

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes, thats what they did and i never got the information here. It was made in February 2014.

 

Contact the court to advise them what has happened. The claimant has applied for a UK court judgement knowing that you were outside of the UK. If you can prove this, you can probably get it set aside.

[king12345]

Italian bailiffs (ufficiali di pignoramento) only act upon Italian court instructions and only after a sentence has been passed and after you have not responded to written communication from the court.

There's no way they would enforce an European warrant without consent from the Italian court; there's simply no procedure to do so, let alone without you receiving any communication.

Firstly check if the "lawyer" is a real lawyer here:

http://www.consiglionazionaleforense.it/site/home/area-avvocati/ricerca-avvocati.html

Many people in Italy claim of being lawyers when in fact they are not.

If this lawyer is indeed registered as such, I would report him to the lawyers register authority (albo degli avvocati) of his district (provincia) which you will know from the link above.

Furthermore, if he's clearly lied in his email and clearly tried to make you pay, go straight to your nearest police station and report it.

Strictly, this should be jurisdiction for the "carabinieri" to investigate fraud and extortion, but, because lawyers use the carabinieri to submit their criminal reports, they're sometimes not too inclined to proceed against them, so I would go to the police instead.

If this lawyer is not a lawyer at all, you can report him for false representation, fraud and extortion all in one go, completely ruining his life.

I'm pretty sure they are taking you for a ride to squeeze money out of you.

Go hard on this "lawyer", don't let him get away with extortion.

[Sole78]

Italian bailiffs (ufficiali di pignoramento) only act upon Italian court instructions and only after a sentence has been passed and after you have not responded to written communication from the court.

There's no way they would enforce an European warrant without consent from the Italian court; there's simply no procedure to do so, let alone without you receiving any communication.

Firstly check if the "lawyer" is a real lawyer here:

http://www.consiglionazionaleforense.it/site/home/area-avvocati/ricerca-avvocati.html

Many people in Italy claim of being lawyers when in fact they are not.

If this lawyer is indeed registered as such, I would report him to the lawyers register authority (albo degli avvocati) of his district (provincia) which you will know from the link above.

Furthermore, if he's clearly lied in his email and clearly tried to make you pay, go straight to your nearest police station and report it.

Strictly, this should be jurisdiction for the "carabinieri" to investigate fraud and extortion, but, because lawyers use the carabinieri to submit their criminal reports, they're sometimes not too inclined to proceed against them, so I would go to the police instead.

If this lawyer is not a lawyer at all, you can report him for false representation, fraud and extortion all in one go, completely ruining his life.

I'm pretty sure they are taking you for a ride to squeeze money out of you.

Go hard on this "lawyer", don't let him get away with extortion.

 

Thank you so much for these good advices, we are goingt to do as you suggested if the Italian lawyer calls us again and really will go to the police if he keeps threatening us if in base of the EEO he cant do anything. He said with clear words on the phone that he has a court order and he will sen us the uffiali di pignoramento, in the email of course he did not write that as he knows for sure that would get him into trouble.

[king12345]

I suppose he knows that he should be careful with written communication.

However, don't forget that a lot of telephone calls in Italy are recorded if someone has been reported for anything or linked even vaguely to some dodgy characters.

This guy being a rogue "lawyer" is most likely in touch with criminals and so under constant telephone recording.

If you're lucky and find a keen police officer when you report him, he could really go down badly.

But don't hold your breath, most likely he will just disappear from your life as soon as you report him and start preying on someone else.

Did you check if he's a lawyer?

Where about are you in Italy?

[Sole78]

He really is a lawyer, we are in Lombardia but the lawyer is from another region. We would be happy if he would just disappear! I'll let you know if he calls us and how it goes..i hope this thread can help if someone else is in trouble in Italy. And many thanks to all of you trying to help!

[Sole78]

It sounds like a [problem] to me.

Lawyers in Italy don't talk over the phone or deal via email.

They all send recorded delivery letters (raccomandata con ricevuta di ritorno) because that's what the Italian regulations require.

Also, enforcement officers in Italy can only execute an enforcement order given by an Italian court.

No way they can knock at your door with an English warrant or even an european one.

To get an Italian court warrant it would probably take 10 years (personal experience).

Also, it is very strange that they claim of having a "EEO" but they instructed a "lawyer" to call you for payment.

Why would they waste any money on a lawyer if they can just send in the bailiffs?

The answer is: They don't have any legal right to enforce this warrant and they're trying to con you.

Call back the Italian lawyer and tell him to send all relevant documents by recorded delivery.

Also tell him that you have recorded his telephone call and if he's lied about having a warrant of execution you will report him to the competent authority (foro) so he can be struck off the register (albo degli avvocati).

In Italy the guys running the lawyer conduct authority are merciless and every lawyer is scared of them.

I'm sure the Italian "lawyer" will magically disappear.

I write lawyer in inverted commas because I'm convinced that all of this is a trick to make you pay and there's no lawyer or at most, just a rogue one.

Keep us updated please

This is the email he sent us:

 

nella pratica emarginata faccio seguito alla conversazione telefonica intercorsa in data odierna e Le confermo che sono stato incaricato di recuperare un credito di ca. GBP 6.600,00 (in lettere: seimilaseicento) a fronte di un decreto ingiutivo europeo passato in giudicato.

Le chiedo di farmi sapere se la debitrice provvederà spontaneamente al pagamento o meno. In caso di risposta affermativa Le comunicherò l'importo esatto con gli interessi aggiornati ed il conto corrente su cui versarlo.

In attesa di Suo riscontro, Le invio cordiali saluti.

 

There was nothing attached to the email!

[unclebulgaria67]

According to the English translation, they are asking whether you volunteer to pay or not.

 

You could contact the UK National Debtline for their advice on this. You can email them to ask for advice on this.

 

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/Pages/default.aspx

 

As I said before, you could apply to the UK court to get the judgement set aside, as the claimant made the claim knowing you were abroad. The problem with the set aside, is that there may be a hearing at a UK court, which you or a representative may need to attend.

 

It would be interesting to know what type of debt this was and which DCA in the UK is involved.

[Sole78]

According to the English translation, they are asking whether you volunteer to pay or not.

 

You could contact the UK National Debtline for their advice on this. You can email them to ask for advice on this.

 

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/Pages/default.aspx

 

As I said before, you could apply to the UK court to get the judgement set aside, as the claimant made the claim knowing you were abroad. The problem with the set aside, is that there may be a hearing at a UK court, which you or a representative may need to attend.

 

It would be interesting to know what type of debt this was and which DCA in the UK is involved.

 

Thanks I sent an email the the UK natioanal debt line and lets what they say. I'd tell the the details but I'm afraid maybe the DCA will find the topic that way!

[king12345]

With that email he just confirmed that they are at stage one: asking for money.

If they want you to pay they have to open a court case in italy and you will be notified.

As said, they cannot send the bailiffs in at this stage.

Civil cases in Italy take years, so no immediate danger.

This rogue lawyer could try to send someone to see you claiming they're bailiffs.

Don't let them in and don't speak to them.

Just tell them that unless they have an Italian warrant they have no power whatsoever.

If they become intrusive (foot in the door) call the police.

Personally I would apply for the judgment to be set aside, even if it will cost you a trip to the uk.

To have piece of mind, go to the police and report the lawyer for his threatening telephone call.

Most probably they will just take the complaint and close it there, but then you can send a copy to the lawyer so he knows you're not an easy prey.

[king12345]

Also, you can follow the correct procedure and apply to have this eeo revoked by filling the form that should be attached to it when and if they'll eventually deliver it to you.

Until such time, there's nothing at all they can do.

Eeo should be delivered to you recorded delivery and have the appeal procedure and form attached, a bit like a parking ticket.

Why don't you write to the lawyer asking for hard copies of these documents so you can check for yourself if they're genuine or just empty threats?

[Sole78]

Also, you can follow the correct procedure and apply to have this eeo revoked by filling the form that should be attached to it when and if they'll eventually deliver it to you.

Until such time, there's nothing at all they can do.

Eeo should be delivered to you recorded delivery and have the appeal procedure and form attached, a bit like a parking ticket.

Why don't you write to the lawyer asking for hard copies of these documents so you can check for yourself if they're genuine or just empty threats?

We asked after the email him to send as relevant copies but he said he cant send anything to us and got the UK DCA to call us back and it did not go any further than this!

[unclebulgaria67]

We asked after the email him to send as relevant copies but he said he cant send anything to us and got the UK DCA to call us back and it did not go any further than this!

 

I reckon that the UK DCA has not officially employed this Italian lawyer to do much. They have probably given them E100 to send a few emails/make a phone call, to see how they get on. No UK documents have been passed to them and there is currently no intention to start going through the proper legal process in Italy.

 

You can apply to the UK court for a copy of the claimants documents that were used to get the judgements. It is done in writing citing CPR 5.4 and there is a fee which was £11, plus they may charge a bit more to send abroad. If you contact the court, they will be able to advise on this.

[Sole78]

No news for today other than my mother-in -law called the closest court (tribunale) asking what can happen in this case but didnt get much of an informatiom. They just said that as they dont have any details there is nothing they can say and they barely knew what is an European payment order. I'm still waiting an answer from the UK debt line and one lawyer in my home country who is an expert in the EU jurisdiction and then decide if to contact the UK court who admitted the payment order and enforcement order. I'll let you all know when I've these replies. Thanks again!

[unclebulgaria67]

Wait for National debtline to come back to you.

 

It would be worth sending the UK court a written CPR 5.4 request for all documentation they hold relating to the claim and any subsequent claimant actions relating to the claim. The CPR request in just a basic letter asking for all claimant documents submitted to the court to be provided, as you have never been sent the information. Atleast then you have the information, which would help with any set application you made.

 

As I understand it the EEO would be treated as if it were a court judgement in Italy. However to actually enforce it, they would need to follow the rules in Italy, which would presumably include registering it with an Italian court.

[king12345]

As I understand it the EEO would be treated as if it were a court judgement in Italy. However to actually enforce it, they would need to follow the rules in Italy, which would presumably include registering it with an Italian court.

That is correct.

Then a judge must validate the order and that would mean have a small trial similar to small claim court which could be up to 10 years away.

By the way Sole, why don't you pay the debt?

After all someone is out of pocket here because you've moved abroad.

I would be upset myself in their position.

Unless there was a dispute and you were never advised of it.

[Sole78]

By the way Sole, why don't you pay the debt?

After all someone is out of pocket here because you've moved abroad.

I would be upset myself in their position.

Unless there was a dispute and you were never advised of it.

I wont pay as it is not a real debt to pay. It is based on invoices I never received and the original creditor kept making more invoices even they claim that they never received payments, what company works so if they have a client who does not pay? The invoices are based on services that I did not authorize and have no proof that are really done but this is another story. I just need to know how to handle these EOP and EEO now that the DCA has them so I dont think it wise to contact the original creditor and I have a doubt they have sold this debt to the DCA. I need to get the these orders set aside and be sure that they cant come after me now in Italy and then if advisable and possible try to resolve with the original creditor.

[unclebulgaria67]

I wont pay as it is not a real debt to pay. It is based on invoices I never received and the original creditor kept making more invoices even they claim that they never received payments, what company works so if they have a client who does not pay? The invoices are based on services that I did not authorize and have no proof that are really done but this is another story. I just need to know how to handle these EOP and EEO now that the DCA has them so I dont think it wise to contact the original creditor and I have a doubt they have sold this debt to the DCA. I need to get the these orders set aside and be sure that they cant come after me now in Italy and then if advisable and possible try to resolve with the original creditor.

 

Given what you are saying, the important next step is to get copies of all paperwork from the UK court, to see what the claimant has said to get the judgement. You will get the set aside, if there are errors in what they have told the court or they have not followed the rules. e.g deliberately getting a judgement in your absence from the UK, without telling the court they know you reside abroad.

[king12345]

Ok, if they claim of having given you services you didn't ask for then there's no debt.

As unclebulgaria said, you need the uk court documents to check what's going on.

After all they could have fabricated the eeo themselves and attached it to an email

[Sole78]

I have not done anything yet as I was waiting for an information from a lawyer who apparently could help in case needed. He said there should be no problem canceling the EPO and EEO and it should require even much work. But of course he needs to be paid to do this so I'm still waiting.

 

We got today an email from the DCA: You have not responded to us. If we do not hear anything from you by 5pm tomorrow then we will begin enforcing the debt. This will increase your costs. Please call me or email me to resolve this matter.

 

Another threat to make me scared? I have now a lawyer on my side so should I just see what is coming and use him if needed. I would not want to spend money on a lawyer if it isnt really needed!

[king12345]

You haven't got any hard documents to prove they have a ccj, eeo and epo apart from an email attachment which could be fabricated.

If you want to get to the bottom of this, you need to contact the court and get the real documents

[Sole78]

Yes, now that I look the documents reveived by email the EPO is just an application form not signed by anyone and the EEO has a court stamp but is not signed by any person or judge, are they normally signed or just stamped?

[unclebulgaria67]

You haven't got any hard documents to prove they have a ccj, eeo and epo apart from an email attachment which could be fabricated.

If you want to get to the bottom of this, you need to contact the court and get the real documents

 

Agree you need to get onto the court to obtain the documents held for this case, so you can see what has gone on. If you speak to a local lawyer, they will probably charge you for a meeting in which they tell you to get hold of the UK court documents first and then to come back to them.

 

The email is just an empty threat to ramp up the pressure. Don't respond to it.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes, now that I look the documents reveived by email the EPO is just an application form not signed by anyone and the EEO has a court stamp but is not signed by any person or judge, are they normally signed or just stamped?

 

An official court stamp says the name of the court (there is a crown in the centre) and someone usually signs over the stamp and dates it.

 

There are people that have stamps made up, just saying county court and these are just generic office stamps they use to make you believe that it is a real document from a court.

[unclebulgaria67]

If you use a google UK and enter county court stamps and then click on images you will see many examples of what a stamp looks like.

[Sole78]

The stamp has a County Court name but there is no signature.