Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

[bhall]

Ben

So the above post is law or is it a report!

 

Hello Is It Me?

 

Applecart has already posted exactly what it is

 

"Originally Posted by applecart

Full background to the Bill and detailed explanations on the purpose and content of its clauses can be found in the joint Law Commission and HM Land Registry report, Land Registration for the Twenty-First Century:A Conveyancing Revolution (Law Com No. 271)."

 

The "bill" became the Land Registration Act 2002 - as per the above, the report gives the background and detailed explanations on the purposes and content of its clauses (those clauses are the different sections of the Act, for example s.23) - so you could say it explains the law

[Peterbard]

Dodgeball,

 

Originally Posted by IS IT ME?:

This is the FULL sec not just the bit you post Ben

23 Owner’s powers

 

(1)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered estate consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description,

 

(b)power to charge the estate at law with the payment of money.

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

 

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

(3)In subsection (2)(a), “legal sub-mortgage” means—

 

(a)a transfer by way of mortgage,

 

(b)a sub-mortgage by sub-demise, and

 

©a charge by way of legal mortgage.

 

 

It CLEARLY states you CAN NOT do that which you have tried very very hard to say we can Ben , nice try lol

I know I said I wold not comment on here again but it really is exasperating.

 

Where exactly does it say that a owner of a registered estate cannot create a mortgage by way of a charge ?

 

I can not see for the life of me why you are so so blind and just out to wind people up,

Does it not say. OTHER THAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had this at the chamber

I can not be any clearer than that YOU CAN NOT DO IT !!!!!! Understand

This has been as much confirmed at the hearing!

 

Sorry IIM and I assure you i am not trying to wind anyone up just trying to see your point, you mean this;

 

"other than a mortgage by demise or sub-demise, and"

 

This simply means that the owner of the estate can make any Kind of mortgage OTHER THAN a mortgage of this particular type(ie by demise) ?

[bhall]

This is the FULL sec not just the bit you post Ben

23 Owner’s powers

 

(1)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered estate consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a mortgage by demise or sub-demise, and

 

(b)power to charge the estate at law with the payment of money.

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

 

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

(3)In subsection (2)(a), “legal sub-mortgage” means—

 

(a)a transfer by way of mortgage,

 

(b)a sub-mortgage by sub-demise, and

 

©a charge by way of legal mortgage.

 

 

It CLEARLY states you CAN NOT do that which you have tried very very hard to say we can Ben , nice try lol

 

Ok,

 

You have said previously that this was raised during the hearing at the Property Chamber.

 

Instead of us going around in circles, it is clear subject to moderation that you can post what you want.

 

Why not clear this matter up once and for all and simply post what happened during the hearing ?

 

It will be detailed in the written decision anyway, so it is hardly going to be a secret, is it, Is It Me?

 

Why are you so reluctant to post any specifics about the hearing ? - being subject to moderation does not prevent you.

[bhall]

On another note and not to detract - At this rate with the way the wind is blowing there may not be much title to be had and I'm in the Midlands so it must be like hell on the coast and with the floods to boot. Not good at all..

 

It would be interesting, as I've stated before, on how any properties that have sub-prime mortgages AND have had block insurance inflicted on them are dealt with. As previous, they seem to under insure at the max. premium so with such a large event and so many properties involved we might just get a clue what this would mean if a claim for the whole of a property were to happen and what position it would leave the homeowner in. Just a thought..

 

I was watching it on the news this morning, I feel so sorry for those effected.

 

There are some interesting threads on here about the insurance. I was reading one the other day about a FOS decision - the borrower had his/her own insurance but the lender kept charging for their own arranged insurance. - it looks like with some lenders this is a regular tactic.

[bhall]

It will take a while.

 

Some have no issue in understanding that 'yellow and blue make Green'

 

Some will insist that - No - it is 'Blue and Yellow that makes Green'.

 

The outcome will be the same....so long as yellow and Blue is the ingredient.... it will always be Green.

 

under LRA s.23 no borrower has statutory power to grant a mortgage by demise nor a legal charge or any type of disposition that will cause the same effect - The Law is the Law....it is Yellow and Blue.....the FACT remains.....as a Borrower - no matter which way round you look to interpret the statute.....it remains the same.....you still have no power to mortgage your "Estate" or mortgage your "Charge" by way of Legal Sub-Mortgage.......end of ; )

 

 

Apple

 

You don't need to interpret the statute. Just read what it says, you even posted about a report that helps people to understand it

 

" Originally Posted by applecart

Full background to the Bill and detailed explanations on the purpose and content of its clauses can be found in the joint Law Commission and HM Land Registry report, Land Registration for the Twenty-First Century:A Conveyancing Revolution (Law Com No. 271)."

 

That statutory power for a borrower (registered proprietor) of a registered estate to grant a legal charge (charge by deed expressed to be by way of legal mortgage) is s.23(1) of the Land Registration Act 2002. The report details the applicable legislation and sections prior to the LRA 2002, that also detailed that statutory power

 

It is all there in black and white

[bhall]

Is it me?

 

Who does the law say must be registered as the proprietor of the charge ?

 

From the same report

 

The grant of a legal charge

 

4.29 The grant of a legal charge is a registrable disposition.100 To register the charge, the chargee or his or her successor in title must be entered in the register as its proprietor.101 By way of an exception, the creation of a legal charge that is also a local land charge does not require registration.102 The reasons for this exception are more fully explained in Part VII of this Report,103 but may be summarised as follows¾

 

which of course is

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/schedule/2

 

Creation of legal charge

 

8 In the case of the creation of a charge, the chargee, or his successor in title, must be entered in the register as the proprietor of the charge.

 

And the applicable explanatory note

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ision/4/14/1/7

 

Creation of legal charge

 

223.Paragraph 8 relates to a newly created charge over a registered estate or a registered rentcharge. The charge must be recorded in the register relating to the registered estate and show the chargee (typically the lender) as proprietor of that charge.

 

(registered estate - not unregistered estate)

[bhall]

This will only happen if a post is unapproved/deleted for some reason. Editing only changes the post itself, not the post count.

 

Hello CB,

 

Reading the thread again, I can see what happened. It looks like one of Is It Me?'s posts was approved and when it appeared on the thread, it pushed Crapstones post onto the next page. The page change just appeared odd at the time.

[sequenci]

That may have happened, I know that IMS has tidied up the thread a little too - that was yesterday.

[applecart]

Hi,

Apple thanks for your help and for keeping this going as I for one watching this can see that the team want to close this AGAIN with the last couple of posts by them.

Sorry but I still can not post which I and others find very very strange but as others have been albe to see that my replies to you and others have been stopped it will all come out in the end.

I have also asked why some posters have got away with things when we have been put in the dock??? Yet to have an answer!

 

Hi Is It Me

 

You set out to assist your friend; and, as BP observed; you trusted me to assist you and I am doing so.

 

The site team have advised where their concerns lie. We are doing our best to stay within the rules against a barrage of latent postings that have and can do nothing about the application.

 

You have championed the cause for not only your friend but for thousands of Borrowers; you attended the hearing with your friend and others to find that the Lender was 'DUMBSTRUCK' - The Lender - as we knew would be the case - had NO DEFENCE.

 

I cannot see that the site team would remove a thread that concerns a live case, that has every mark of success - without due regard for the overriding objective - which is fundamental to a site dedicated to consumers.

 

I can see that the site team will insist that one and all post within the Rules - I have unwittingly fell foul of the rules and paid the price by way of moderation.

 

This topic is bound to get 'emotive' - after all - we are talking about consumers property.

 

Having said that, we now know how to ensure that the 'emotions' are kept at bay - when baited - before responding as we would prefer to do - stop - think - and report the offensive post to the site team ; )

 

Have no fear Is It Me, I do not plan to go anywhere - I said I would assist - I intend to continue to do so - when the job is done and your friend is ok - then and only then will l leave this thread ; )

 

Apple

[sequenci]

The posts will only get moderated if they are in breach of the site rules. I'm certainly not going to remove a post simply because I disagree with the content - that would be absolutely ridiculous. I may not agree with everything anyone says on CAG - but I would absolutely defend their right to have their say and their opinion. And though we may disagree and have dissenting views on here, I would still be the first to buy you all a drink - because, believe it or not, I actually respect anyone for standing up for what they believe in.

[Peterbard]

Sorry IIM and I assure you i am not trying to wind anyone up just trying to see your point, you mean this;

 

"other than a mortgage by demise or sub-demise, and"

 

This simply means that the owner of the estate can make any Kind of mortgage OTHER THAN a mortgage of this particular type(ie by demise) ?

 

Sorry IMS . I see you may be referring to the "other than" in section 2 ?

 

Section two refers to the owner of the charge(ie the lender) it relates to A sub-charge, this has been explained earlier in the thread and is when the lender seeks to raise capital by using his charge as further equity on another loan with a third party.

 

It says that the lender cannot make a mortgage , obviously because he does not own the estate, just the bit that consists of his charge.

 

Is that clearer?

[applecart]

Ok,

 

You have said previously that this was raised during the hearing at the Property Chamber.

 

Instead of us going around in circles, it is clear subject to moderation that you can post what you want.

 

Why not clear this matter up once and for all and simply post what happened during the hearing ?

 

It will be detailed in the written decision anyway, so it is hardly going to be a secret, is it, Is It Me?

 

Why are you so reluctant to post any specifics about the hearing ? - being subject to moderation does not prevent you.

 

It would be irresponsible of Is It Me to post full detail of the hearing at this point, applications to the Chamber are not by means of 'template' alone.

 

Is It Me is being responsible to ensure that only the detail that is contradicted by your posts is made available, for one and all to know that a Lender cannot 'mortgage' a registered estate.

 

The Lender has 28 days to respond to the decision - we have to give the Lender that opportunity to do so.

 

When the Lender responds - the Chamber will have to consider that response and possibly give further directions....the case is live... the case is on-going....

 

The 'ball' is in the Lenders court right now.

 

It may be the Lender may look to the same understanding that you and Dodgeball have come to - We wait to see ; )

 

There is nothing more to say or do right now until the Lender responds really.

 

Apple

[applecart]

The posts will only get moderated if they are in breach of the site rules. I'm certainly not going to remove a post simply because I disagree with the content - that would be absolutely ridiculous. I may not agree with everything anyone says on CAG - but I would absolutely defend their right to have their say and their opinion. And though we may disagree and have dissenting views on here, I would still be the first to buy you all a drink - because, believe it or not, I actually respect anyone for standing up for what they believe in.

 

Cheers Sequenci - mines a Chardonnay - white and ice cold please ; )

 

Apple

[sequenci]

Cheers Sequenci - mines a Chardonnay - white and ice cold please ; )

 

Apple

 

[bhall]

It would be irresponsible of Is It Me to post full detail of the hearing at this point, applications to the Chamber are not by means of 'template' alone.

 

Is It Me is being responsible to ensure that only the detail that is contradicted by your posts is made available, for one and all to know that a Lender cannot 'mortgage' a registered estate.

 

The Lender has 28 days to respond to the decision - we have to give the Lender that opportunity to do so.

 

When the Lender responds - the Chamber will have to consider that response and possibly give further directions....the case is live... the case is on-going....

 

The 'ball' is in the Lenders court right now.

 

It may be the Lender may look to the same understanding that you and Dodgeball have come to - We wait to see ; )

 

There is nothing more to say or do right now until the Lender responds really.

 

Apple

 

Whilst I consider it odd, that Is It Me? is so reluctant to post any detail of the hearing, beyond a couple of vague references, especially as he indicates it went so well for his friend and the other unknown applicant - I respect his right to stay tight lipped and to keep things to himself.

 

 

In that case, I guess we will just have to until the written decision is posted in this thread then, to know what was said and done during the hearing.

 

That will be very interesting to read.

[applecart]

Is it me?

 

Who does the law say must be registered as the proprietor of the charge ?

 

From the same report

 

The grant of a legal charge

 

4.29 The grant of a legal charge is a registrable disposition.100 To register the charge, the chargee or his or her successor in title must be entered in the register as its proprietor.101 By way of an exception, the creation of a legal charge that is also a local land charge does not require registration.102 The reasons for this exception are more fully explained in Part VII of this Report,103 but may be summarised as follows¾

 

which of course is

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/schedule/2

 

Creation of legal charge

 

8 In the case of the creation of a charge, the chargee, or his successor in title, must be entered in the register as the proprietor of the charge.

 

And the applicable explanatory note

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ision/4/14/1/7

 

Creation of legal charge

 

223.Paragraph 8 relates to a newly created charge over a registered estate or a registered rentcharge. The charge must be recorded in the register relating to the registered estate and show the chargee (typically the lender) as proprietor of that charge.

 

(registered estate - not unregistered estate)

 

The Law says it is the Lender who must be registered as the Proprietor of the Charge on First Registration - subject to the dealing being in un-registered land and meeting the 'trigger' as set down in Part 2 - Chapter 1 of the LRA 2002 - see section 4 for full details.

 

Link to Part 2: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/contents

 

Link to Section 4: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/4

 

Hope this helps? ; )

 

Apple

[sequenci]

There cannot be too many properties that remain unregistered, can there?

[bhall]

The Law says it is the Lender who must be registered as the Proprietor of the Charge on First Registration - subject to the dealing being in un-registered land and meeting the 'trigger' as set down in Part 2 - Chapter 1 of the LRA 2002 - see section 4 for full details.

 

Link to Part 2: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/contents

 

Link to Section 4: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/4

 

Hope this helps? ; )

 

Apple

 

 

Apple read my post that you quoted

 

"223.Paragraph 8 relates to a newly created charge over a registered estate or a registered rentcharge. The charge must be recorded in the register relating to the registered estate and show the chargee (typically the lender) as proprietor of that charge."

 

"Registered Estate"

 

The LRA 2002 defines "registered estate" as

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/132

 

“registered estate” means a legal estate the title to which is entered in the register, other than a registered charge;

 

The title has been been entered into the register

[applecart]

Whilst I consider it odd, that Is It Me? is so reluctant to post any detail of the hearing, beyond a couple of vague references, especially as he indicates it went so well for his friend and the other unknown applicant - I respect his right to stay tight lipped and to keep things to himself.

 

 

In that case, I guess we will just have to until the written decision is posted in this thread then, to know what was said and done during the hearing.

 

That will be very interesting to read.

 

Not 'Odd'....., 'responsible' is the correct word to use I would have thought.

 

What is of interest to me is the Fact that the Lender is tasked with having to overcome LRA s.23 which is the same as you look to do here - you have yet to do so - it is unlikely that the Lender will be able to either.

 

 

Apple

[bhall]

This single post sums up things nicely

 

Apple says unregistered the law says registered

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?391318-Repossession-questioned-by-deeds-not-being-signed&p=4471316&viewfull=1#post4471316

[bhall]

Not 'Odd'....., 'responsible' is the correct word to use I would have thought.

 

What is of interest to me is the Fact that the Lender is tasked with having to overcome LRA s.23 which is the same as you look to do here - you have yet to do so - it is unlikely that the Lender will be able to either.

 

 

Apple

 

Yes, I did read that is what he said.

 

However, I would still consider it odd that he remains so silent, even on how the day went generally - Afterall the other applicants might be interested and it would give them the heads up.

 

Anything he decides to share would be of benefit to the other applicants, would it not ?

 

 

The decision will be posted here, as and when so I guess everyone will just have to wait until then

[applecart]

Apple read my post that you quoted

 

"223.Paragraph 8 relates to a newly created charge over a registered estate or a registered rentcharge. The charge must be recorded in the register relating to the registered estate and show the chargee (typically the lender) as proprietor of that charge."

 

"Registered Estate"

 

The LRA 2002 defines "registered estate" as

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/132

 

“registered estate” means a legal estate the title to which is entered in the register, other than a registered charge;

 

The title has been been entered into the register

 

Refer to the "principles" and the intended distinction between those for "registered" land and "Unregistered" land

 

Part 1 & 2 of the LRA 2002 refers to "UN-Registered" Land...

 

Part 3 & 4 refers to "Registered" Land

 

Here is the link: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/contents

 

Apple

[applecart]

Yes, I did read that is what he said.

 

However, I would still consider it odd that he remains so silent, even on how the day went generally - Afterall the other applicants might be interest and it would give them the heads up

 

As I understand it - applications that have been made that followed the draft written submission are 'stayed' awaiting the outcome of those cases that are being 'heard'.

 

Those applicants are now aware that the argument presented - found that LRA s.23 works for them too.

 

That was down to Is It Me and his obvious skill and ability in open court - to be applauded - don't you think?

 

Apple

[bhall]

As I understand it - applications that have been made that followed the draft written submission are 'stayed' awaiting the outcome of those cases that are being 'heard'.

 

Those applicants are now aware that the argument presented - found that LRA s.23 works for them too.

 

That was down to Is It Me and his obvious skill and ability in open court - to be applauded - don't you think?

 

Apple

 

I will save my applause until I have read the decision ;-)

 

I will then clap very loudly

[IS IT ME?]

Ben,

Just for the record I WOULD AND DO help others be it on this thread or BY GOING To court with them or for them, so far 4 out of 4 cases the lender I has NOT got what it wanted!

 

If any one wanted to ask me and THEY had an application or a case with the chamber then I would tell them not some one who works for the lenders sorry lol

After