Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

[applecart]

You can start to understand, when you stop with your interpretations (it is written in english after all) and just read and accept what it actually says and not what you wish and dream it said

 

Hi Ben

 

Check out your post #4894 - you will see that the amendment under sub-section (4) to LPA 1925 section 87 - references LRA s.23 (1)(a) - True??

 

Is LRA s.23 (1)(a) not to do with the "Estate"??

 

Does LRA s.23 (1)(b) not speak of a lender/borrower looking to secure 'money or money's worth' - no??

 

And is LRA s.23 (2) not to do with the "Charge"???

 

Does LRA s.23 (2)(b) not speak of a lender/borrower looking to secure 'indebtedness - no??

 

Apple

[bhall]

Hi Ben

 

Check out your post #4894 - you will see that the amendment under sub-section (4) to LPA 1925 section 87 - references LRA s.23 (1)(a) - True??

 

Is LRA s.23 (1)(a) not to do with the "Estate"??

 

Does LRA s.23 (1)(b) not speak of a lender/borrower looking to secure 'money or money's worth' - no??

 

And is LRA s.23 (2) not to do with the "Charge"???

 

Does LRA s.23 (2)(b) not speak of a lender/borrower looking to secure 'indebtedness - no??

 

Apple

 

Apple

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

 

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

How can a borrower charge at law debt secured by a registered charge ?

 

Come on, use some common sense here...

 

The registered charge already exists and has ben granted to the lender.....

 

The lender can use it as security when it borrowers funds from 3rd party

 

Don't confuse what things mean with what you think they mean.

[caro]

I'm getting dizzy going round in circles.

 

TTFN

[applecart]

Apple it is ok, I know that you just don't get it.

 

s.23(1) are the borrowers powers and by s.23(1)(a)

 

Owner’s powers in relation to a registered estate consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a mortgage by demise or sub-demise, and

 

As it says - the owner of the registered estate has the power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by general law

 

Shall we take a look at dispositions.... ?

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/27

 

(2)In the case of a registered estate, the following are the dispositions which are required to be completed by registration—

 

(f)the grant of a legal charge.

 

The grant of a legal charge, is a disposition which is required to be completed by registration and it is a disposition that is permitted at general law.

 

Contrary to your fanciful ideas and wishful thinking a borrower can and does grant a charge to the lender

 

Come on, just read it, it is all there in plain english for you

 

as for s.23(2) they are the powers of the proprietor of the legal charge.. who is that again ? Oh yeah, the law confirms the lender is the proprietor of the legal charge.

 

Hi Ben

 

Are you saying that the loan - which obviously becomes the Borrowers 'debt' - must and can only be secured under LRA s.23 (1)(a)...by way of the Borrowers "Estate".......

 

After all - I could suppose that a 'loan/debt' is 'money or money's worth' - Is that what you advise I do??

 

I take for granted that this is the point you are making - because you have clearly stated that the Borrower can not rely on LRA s.23 (2)(b) - to secure the indebtedness - because that and the powers in relation to it .... according to you ...... belong to the Lender.......

 

Is this what you are taking time away from your Mrs to teach me Ben??

 

Apple

[applecart]

Apple

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

 

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

How can a borrower charge at law debt secured by a registered charge ?

 

Come on, use some common sense here...

 

The registered charge already exists and has ben granted to the lender.....

 

The lender can use it as security when it borrowers funds from 3rd party

 

Don't confuse what things mean with what you think they mean.

 

Are you looking to teach me that a Borrowers indebtedness is not 'indebtedness' but instead 'money or money's worth' Ben?

 

Apple

[applecart]

I'm getting dizzy going round in circles.

 

TTFN

 

It could be worse Caro - you could end up changing your avatar to a stick man banging its head against a stick wall - LOL

 

oooouuccchhh ; )

 

Apple

[applecart]

Anyone played hang man lately - that stick man looks like a hang man primed for a noose IMO ; )

 

Apple

[bhall]

Hello Apple

 

This has already been posted a number of times in this thread already.

 

Please read it, it will help you understand

 

Originally Posted by bhall:

To support my previous comments in relation to s.23 -

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/section/23

 

23 Owner’s powers

 

(1)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered estate consist of—

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a mortgage by demise or sub-demise, and

(b)power to charge the estate at law with the payment of money.

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

(3)In subsection (2)(a), “legal sub-mortgage” means—

(a)a transfer by way of mortgage,

(b)a sub-mortgage by sub-demise, and

©a charge by way of legal mortgage.

 

 

http://www.practicalconveyancing.co....t/view/7808/0/

 

Background:

 

A sub-mortgage is a mortgage of a mortgage. For example, A borrows £10,000 from B and mortgages his house to B as security for the loan. B then needs to borrow £1,000. B borrows the money from C and then mortgages the asset he has i.e. the mortgage of A’s house, to C as security for the loan.......

 

........Under the LRA 2002, the owner of a registered estate cannot create a mortgage by demise or sub-demise (section 23(1)(a)). The only way to create a legal mortgage is by a charge by way of legal mortgage (pursuant to sections 85(1) and 86(1) of the LPA 1925) or by charging the estate at law with the payment of money (section 23(1)(b) of the LRA 2002). When registered, a charge has effect, if it would not otherwise do so, as a charge by deed by way of legal mortgage (section 51 - equivalent to section 27(1) of the LRA 1925).

 

The proprietor of a registered charge cannot create a "legal sub-mortgage" i.e. a transfer by way of mortgage, a sub-mortgage by sub-demise or a charge by way of legal mortgage (sections 23(2)(a) and 23(3)). The proprietor does have the power to "charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge" (section 23(2)(b)). The registered proprietor of a subcharge has, in relation to the property subject to the principal charge, the same powers as the principal chargee (section 53).

 

If the provisions of the LRA 2002 had applied in this case, it is submitted that the principal mortgagee would still have had the right to take possession of the property because a registered principal charge will continue to operate as if the mortgagee had a term of years (pursuant to section 51 of the LRA 2002 and section 87(1) of the LPA 1925). On the assumption that the sub-charge was created pursuant to section 23(2)(b) of the LRA 2002, the sub-chargee will not be deemed to have a term of years under the LPA 1925. However, the subchargee should nevertheless have a right to possession of the property under section 53 of the LRA 2002.

 

As confirmed by the Charges register the proprietor of the registered charge is the lender and not the borrower.

 

s.23 (1) applies to the powers of the borrower as the owner of the legal estate and

s.23 (2) apples to the powers of the lender as the owner of the charge

 

A borrower can by law grant a charge by legal mortgage

 

Ben, I think you have got it wrong with respect, as the LENDER has sub charged the mortgage when they sold it

[bhall]

If the link doesn't work

 

 

http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/view/7808/0/

 

The facts of the case, detailed in last post, should serve to help you understand where you have gone wrong

 

"Facts:

 

The claimant made a loan to the defendant to purchase a house and the loan was secured by a first mortgage on the property (the "principal charge"). On the same date that the principal charge was executed, a sub-charge was executed by the claimant in favour of Bank of Scotland (the "sub-chargee")."

 

I am sorry that it is different to how you thought things were

[bhall]

Ben your WORNG it's the OWNERS (borrowers) under this and it goes on to 3 what does that one say pray tell!

 

Hello Is It Me?

 

Sorry I don't mean to keep missing your posts.

 

You said

 

"Ben, I think you have got it wrong with respect, as the LENDER has sub charged the mortgage when they sold it"

 

You are saying it both ways.

 

If it isn't the lender, how can the lender do what you have said ?

[applecart]

Hi Ben;

 

Perhaps this will help you understand:

 

• “registrar” means the Chief Land Registrar;

• “register” means the register of title, except in the context of cautions against first registration;

• “registered” means entered in the register;

• “registered charge” means a charge the title to which is entered in the register;

• “registered estate” means a legal estate the title to which is entered in the register, other than a registered charge;

• “registered land” means a registered estate or registered charge;

• “registrable disposition” means a disposition which is required to be completed by registration under section 27

 

Ben, given the above – which one is ‘created’ to the favor of a Lender?

 

Is it not the one that is defined as ‘registrable disposition’ – the one that is completed by registration under s.27???

 

What is the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is It not the deed????

 

Who ‘creates’ the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is it not both the Lender and Borrower??

 

Is it not fair to say that the lenders name will not be entered on the title unless the borrower signs the deed Ben?

 

Common sense says – if the Borrower does not sign the deed – the lender does not get his name on the title – that’s what common sense speaks of here. – does it not?

 

So, if the Borrower does not sign the Deed – will the lenders name be on the title Ben?

 

Of course not!

 

So, how you look to make out that the Lender is already on the title is beyond illusion – I think even HHJ Butler would put you straight on that point : )

 

I am sorry if this is different to how you think things are.

 

Apple

[bhall]

Hi Ben;

 

Perhaps this will help you understand:

 

• “registrar” means the Chief Land Registrar;

• “register” means the register of title, except in the context of cautions against first registration;

• “registered” means entered in the register;

• “registered charge” means a charge the title to which is entered in the register;

• “registered estate” means a legal estate the title to which is entered in the register, other than a registered charge;

• “registered land” means a registered estate or registered charge;

• “registrable disposition” means a disposition which is required to be completed by registration under section 27

 

Ben, given the above – which one is ‘created’ to the favor of a Lender?

 

Is it not the one that is defined as ‘registrable disposition’ – the one that is completed by registration under s.27???

 

What is the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is It not the deed????

 

Who ‘creates’ the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is it not both the Lender and Borrower??

 

Is it not fair to say that the lenders name will not be entered on the title unless the borrower signs the deed Ben?

 

Common sense says – if the Borrower does not sign the deed – the lender does not get his name on the title – that’s what common sense speaks of here. – does it not?

 

So, if the Borrower does not sign the Deed – will the lenders name be on the title Ben?

 

Of course not!

 

So, how you look to make out that the Lender is already on the title is beyond illusion – I think even HHJ Butler would put you straight on that point : )

 

I am sorry if this is different to how you think things are.

 

Apple

 

?

 

Read your own post.

 

"Registered charge"

 

A "a grant of a charge" is a "registrable disposition" and when it is completed by registration it is a "registered charge"

 

It is that obvious and simple

 

Is anyone claiming that they as the borrower did not sign the deed, which granted the charge ( being a registrable disposition) in favour if the lender, which was registered at HMLR - thus becoming a "registered charge" in favour of the lender - following which the lender became the registered proprietor of that charge and able to exercise the powers as owner as such ?

[bhall]

At least pretend you have read the applicable legislation

 

Have you read that link I posted, if there is anything there you still don't understand, let me know and when time permits, I will explain and break it down to you, so that you can understand

[bhall]

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to readers of this thread and members of the site team for my provocative posts tonight, expressing my frustration about a certain posters inability to understand and comprehend the law.

 

Ben

[applecart]

Hello Is It Me?

 

Sorry I don't mean to keep missing your posts.

 

You said

 

"Ben, I think you have got it wrong with respect, as the LENDER has sub charged the mortgage when they sold it"

 

You are saying it both ways.

 

If it isn't the lender, how can the lender do what you have said ?

 

Hi Ben

 

You have misconstrued the point that Is It Me is making here.

 

What Is It Me is saying (and quite rightly too) is that the Lender who should have derived only a 'sub-charge' - has instead secured a 'legal charge' - and in reliance on the statute that relates to powers of an owner of a 'legal charge' (the borrowers Legal power under LRA s.23 (1)(a)) - they exercised the Borrowers power as the 'legal chargee' (even before the Borrower was in default - we are finding...) to sell the 'legal estate' (LRA s.23 (1)(a) and the 'debt' (LRA s.23 (2)(b) on to a SPV.....by way of securitisation ..... which is the process which involves the Lender selling all rights in relation to the Borrowers legal estate (as if the Lender is the 'legal chargee') - including both 'equitable and legal interest' (TDA 1989 by way of POA).. to the SPV....

 

Hope this helps you better understand the point Is It Me was making ; )

 

Apple

[bhall]

Hi Ben

 

You have misconstrued the point that Is It Me is making here.

 

What Is It Me is saying (and quite rightly too) is that the Lender who should have derived only a 'sub-charge' - has instead secured a 'legal charge' - and in reliance on the statute that relates to powers of an owner of a 'legal charge' (the borrowers Legal power under LRA s.23 (1)(a)) - they exercised the Borrowers power as the 'legal chargee' (even before the Borrower was in default - we are finding...) to sell the 'legal estate' (LRA s.23 (1)(a) and the 'debt' (LRA s.23 (2)(b) on to a SPV.....by way of securitisation ..... which is the process which involves the Lender selling all rights in relation to the Borrowers legal estate (as if the Lender is the 'legal chargee') - including both 'equitable and legal interest' (TDA 1989 by way of POA).. to the SPV....

 

Hope this helps you better understand the point Is It Me was making ; )

 

Apple

 

So now your interpreting Is It Me?'s posts lmao

 

His actual words were -

 

""Ben, I think you have got it wrong with respect, as the LENDER has sub charged the mortgage when they sold it"

 

 

Please take time to read that link I posted, you must be able to see the error of your ways

[applecart]

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to readers of this thread and members of the site team for my provocative posts tonight, expressing my frustration about a certain posters inability to understand and comprehend the law.

 

Ben

 

I presume you are referring to me Ben - my name is 'Applecart' - there is no need to refer to me by any other name - and certainly not 'certain posters'..... it may be you are also referring to Enfircer (apologies if I have spelt the name wrong)......there is no issue with stating the correct names - that's 'transparency' - we have nothing to hide here Ben..... we are all conscious of each other here ; )

 

Do me a favor - change the Avatar - I'm getting a squint in me left eye Ben....

 

Apple

[applecart]

So now your interpreting Is It Me?'s posts lmao

 

Yes, That's because I understand what this is alllllll about - makes it easier you know ; )

 

Apple

[applecart]

Apple

 

(2)Owner’s powers in relation to a registered charge consist of—

 

(a)power to make a disposition of any kind permitted by the general law in relation to an interest of that description, other than a legal sub-mortgage, and

 

(b)power to charge at law with the payment of money indebtedness secured by the registered charge.

 

How can a borrower charge at law debt secured by a registered charge ?

 

Come on, use some common sense here...

 

The registered charge already exists and has ben granted to the lender.....

 

The lender can use it as security when it borrowers funds from 3rd party

 

Don't confuse what things mean with what you think they mean.

 

You are inferring that 'debt' is to be misconstrued as 'money or money's worth......don't you see your 'F'LAW??

 

Apple

[applecart]

Hi Ben;

 

Perhaps this will help you understand:

 

• “registrar” means the Chief Land Registrar;

• “register” means the register of title, except in the context of cautions against first registration;

• “registered” means entered in the register;

• “registered charge” means a charge the title to which is entered in the register;

• “registered estate” means a legal estate the title to which is entered in the register, other than a registered charge;

• “registered land” means a registered estate or registered charge;

• “registrable disposition” means a disposition which is required to be completed by registration under section 27

 

Ben, given the above – which one is ‘created’ to the favor of a Lender?

 

Is it not the one that is defined as ‘registrable disposition’ – the one that is completed by registration under s.27???

 

What is the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is It not the deed????

 

Who ‘creates’ the ‘registrable disposition’?

 

Is it not both the Lender and Borrower??

 

Is it not fair to say that the lenders name will not be entered on the title unless the borrower signs the deed Ben?

 

Common sense says – if the Borrower does not sign the deed – the lender does not get his name on the title – that’s what common sense speaks of here. – does it not?

 

So, if the Borrower does not sign the Deed – will the lenders name be on the title Ben?

 

Of course not!

 

So, how you look to make out that the Lender is already on the title is beyond illusion – I think even HHJ Butler would put you straight on that point : )

 

I am sorry if this is different to how you think things are.

 

Apple

 

Read the above again Ben.

 

Apple

[bhall]

You can ignore the law as much as you want Apple, by ignoring the obvious you are not assisting anyone.

 

Please remember what I have posted here tonight, when you read the written decision of the property chamber, after I have posted it.

 

I have tried to give you a heads up and tried in simple terms to explain it too you.

[bhall]

Read the above again Ben.

 

Apple

 

I have read and responded to it, you need to understand the terminology, as the words themselves rather than your interpretations prove you wrong

[bhall]

I think I have wasted enough of my time explaining the basics to you for one night. It is clear you are prepared to ignore the obvious as and when it suits you

 

Good night ;-)

[applecart]

If the link doesn't work

 

 

http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/view/7808/0/

 

The facts of the case, detailed in last post, should serve to help you understand where you have gone wrong

 

"Facts:

 

The claimant made a loan to the defendant to purchase a house and the loan was secured by a first mortgage on the property (the "principal charge"). On the same date that the principal charge was executed, a sub-charge was executed by the claimant in favour of Bank of Scotland (the "sub-chargee")."

 

I am sorry that it is different to how you thought things were

 

Read your post and the case you've posted again - except this time - read it as the Law intends it to be understood.

 

If the Claimant (the Lender) loaned the money - you will have to distinguish for the reader whether the 'first legal mortgage' was triggered due to it being the first time that the estate had ever been 'mortgaged' - if it is - then it makes sense - (see Dodgeballs posts in relation to 'triggers' of first mortgages'

 

You look to make out that because the Borrower is 'buying the house' - that his name will be entered on the registered estate as the proprietor for the first time - that we are to forget that the Borrower is buying a 'registered estate' - and that because of that the lender can derive a 'first legal mortgage'......you are joking right?..........that's tantamount to pure illusion.

 

Dodgball has already posted the triggers - and the statute to say that a 'first legal mortgage' is party to 'first registration' - not to Existing 'charges or estates - why would you step away from what Dodgball has posted - I thought you agreed with each other??

 

Clearly you missed Dodgballs posts - have a look at it/them - you seem to have made sense of any post he/she makes that support your own fanciful ideas and 'F'LAWs when it suits you Ben (that's what un-scrupulous lenders do - best to stay clear of such conduct ) - it would appear that you have let his posts to do with First Registrations pass you by??

 

Apple

[applecart]

I think I have wasted enough of my time explaining the basics to you for one night. It is clear you are prepared to ignore the obvious as and when it suits you

 

Good night ;-)

 

Sorry Ben - must have missed this - Good Night ; )

 

Apple