New Default Notice Regulations for Santander??

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

Today a mother at the school gate looked really upset and burst into tears when I asked her what was the matter.

 

Having got her back to her home and made her a cup of tea, she showed me two letters from Santander.

 

It appears it's a small world in that she too had a Flexible Loan account with cahoot and it was transferred to the loan account when Santander took it over.

 

She had buried her head in the sand and had not paid them in over 3 years. Her statements had been arriving with no monthly payment amount set etc and had received no other chasing calls, letters in all of that time.

 

She then received a default notice last week dated 30th January and the original balance has more than doubled.

 

She then received another letter yesterday saying that in 28 days, they would register the default with the CRA's if she didn't start paying.

 

I explained to her what had happened to us and that we had written back to Santander a couple of years back, challenged the rate increase and the refund had paid off what we owed.

 

However, when looking at the remedy date, I noticed that there wasn't one!

 

In it's place it said that the remedy date was 14 days from date of service, nothing else! No you must pay by 20th Feb or we may do X, Y or Z.

 

Have the regulations or requirements changed on this as I thought a properly created DN MUST have an actual date quoted for it to be compliant???

 

In addition, are Santander now playing hardball with refunds on the old cahoot Flexible Loan rate refunds and have stopped paying out?

 

I'm going to help her draft her response etc but wanted to double check on the above two questions first.

 

Many thanks,

 

Bel

[AndyOrch]

That does in fact still stand Belstar which could render the DN invalid.

 

A more important tool in your armoury would be the failure to issue a Notice of Arrears CCA2006 amendments ....failure to comply with renders the claimant in default /unable to add interest/unable to enforce.

 

Arrears notice penalty:

Of course when a trader provides credit, the debtor may default, perhaps knowingly, perhaps unknowingly. Either way, the creditor is under a duty to provide the debtor with a notice stating that they are in arrears and owe ‘x’ amount of money.

 

A new amendment has been made in case of failure to give notice of sums in arrears in CCA 1974. Section 11 CCA 2006 inserts a new section - 86D - that sets out the consequences for a creditor or owner if he fails to give a notice as required by sections 86B or 86C.

 

If the creditor or owner fails to provide a notice of sums in arrears when required to do so, then during the period of his failure to provide the notice (i.e. from the date that it was required to be given until the end of the day on which it is eventually provided), he is not entitled to enforce the agreement. In addition,

 

The debtor or hirer is not liable to pay any interest that relates to the period of the creditor or owner’s failure,

 

Notice of default sums

Section 12 of CCA 2006 applies to situations where a debtor or hirer under a regulated agreement incurs a default sum.

 

A creditor or owner must give the debtor or hirer a notice in the specified form when a default sum becomes payable as a consequence of a breach of the agreement. For example, you hire a car for the duration of your holiday. There will often be a penalty sum payable if you incur a fine from using the car. The car-hire company might say this is to cover, for example, administration charges. Either way, certain sums are payable if you breach the agreement. Where this applies, the creditor must provide notice to the debtor, of the amount they must pay. This only applies where the default sum exceeds a specified amount.

 

Additionally, a creditor may only require a debtor to pay interest (in connection with a default sum) 28 days after the day the notice was given to the debtor. So if the creditor fails to give notice to the debtor then he can not enforce the agreement until notice is given.

 

Default sum

The term ‘default sum’ has been redefined in s.18 CCA 2006. “Default sum” now means: a sum payable by a debtor or hirer in connection with his breach of a regulated agreement (e.g. a charge imposed for late payment of an instalment due under the agreement or a fee imposed for exceeding a credit limit on a credit card). A default sum does not include sums that, as a consequence of a breach of the agreement, become payable earlier than they otherwise would have done. Nor does it include interest.

 

Interest on default sums

Section 13 has been amended so that a creditor or owner may only require simple interest to be paid in respect of default sums payable by the debtor or hirer. This includes sums payable under non-commercial or small agreements.

 

Minimum 14 days after Default notices

The new minimum period after which a creditor or owner may take action (in respect of the agreement after having issued a default notice) is now 14 days. It used to be only 7 days. Section 14 CCA 2006 amends section 88 of the 1974 Act to create this extension.

Additionally, under s87, a creditor or owner must give the debtor or hirer a default notice in the prescribed form if he wishes to:

Terminate the agreement;

Demand earlier payment of a sum;

Recover possession of any goods or land;

Treat any right conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred; or to;

Enforce any security.

 

 

Section 88 is also amended to allow the Secretary of State to prescribe information in the default notice to include any matters relating to the agreement (e.g. information about whether the agreement includes a term providing for the charging of post-judgment interest).

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BelstarBomb]

Wow,

 

Thanks for this Andy. As you know from a previous thread any help directly or indirectly that helps me stick it to Santander makes my day!

 

Ok, I will be going round tomorrow tomorrow morning to help her draft her letter.

 

My original basis was to state the following

 

1. That the DN is defective as it fails to show a specific remedy date
   
2. That the amount shown to remedy includes incorrect amounts
   
3. That the amount shown includes unfair interest and charges
   

 

Basically point three is based on the unfair interest rate increase that they had been paying out on. Is it still worth having a go on this?

 

With reference of the Arrears Notice Penalty, what you are saying is that as Santander failed to send monthly letters saying that you are in arrears by X and your monthly payments are Y and hadn't done so since say January 2010 to today they have no legal right to ask for what exactly? The payments and interest due during that period or the whole outstanding amount? Are you also saying that they cannot enforce the agreement at all now even if they were to go back and take off payments and interest accrued during that time to December 2009?

 

Sorry for firing these questions at you but I just want to make sure that we cover as many bases in the letter as possible to give Santander very little if anything at all to come back with save to say, no worries Mrs X, we're writing this one off!

 

Thanks Andy,

 

Bel

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Fantastic answer Andy!!!!!!

[AndyOrch]

Wow,

 

Thanks for this Andy. As you know from a previous thread any help directly or indirectly that helps me stick it to Santander makes my day!

 

Ok, I will be going round tomorrow tomorrow morning to help her draft her letter.

 

My original basis was to state the following

 

1. That the DN is defective as it fails to show a specific remedy date
   
2. That the amount shown to remedy includes incorrect amounts
   
3. That the amount shown includes unfair interest and charges
   

 

Basically point three is based on the unfair interest rate increase that they had been paying out on. Is it still worth having a go on this? Not really required Bell ....the fact that they have failed to issue the Notice renders all charges unlawful (Default charges/ Interest /and penalties)

 

With reference of the Arrears Notice Penalty, what you are saying is that as Santander failed to send monthly letters saying that you are in arrears by X and your monthly payments are Y and hadn't done so since say January 2010 to today they have no legal right to ask for what exactly?Any arrears interest or penalties.... they are in default The payments and interest due during that period or the whole outstanding amount? Correct Are you also saying that they cannot enforce the agreement at all now even if they were to go back and take off payments and interest accrued during that time to December 2009? Cant enforce until such time they start to issue the Notice

 

Sorry for firing these questions at you but I just want to make sure that we cover as many bases in the letter as possible to give Santander very little if anything at all to come back with save to say, no worries Mrs X, we're writing this one off!

 

Thanks Andy,

 

Bel

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks Andy,

 

She sent the letter on Monday and we will wait to hear back from her/Santander.

 

Thanks again for such a detailed response.

 

Bel

[AndyOrch]

No problem Belstar

 

Let us know what transpires.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

My friend received a response from Santander today in response to her letter of complaint.

 

There is absolutely no acknowledgement or response at all to the Notice of Arrears 2006 failure even though that was the main part of the letter.

 

She had asked for PPI to be cancelled over 5 years ago via the cahoot message system and it wasn't actioned. Santander say that they have no record of this request! When she last wrote to them two years ago, she asked for it to be cancelled again and it still wasn't actioned. We mentioned it in the letter and they have responded by sending her a cheque for £70 by way of an apology for not actioning it before and that it being referred to the relevant department to be further investigated. Should she cash the cheque?

 

They fobbed her off about the unfair increase rise because no error has been made as it is a flexi loan and is within the T&C's

 

She had queried why her statements said Flexi Loan, yet the default notice said Fixed Loan and their response was it looks like a fixed loan as monthly interest has been suspended as it's in default.

 

In response to the defective DN notice and state that having reviewed her account, they have not breached their requirements under the CCA 1974 and the default stands even though there was no date on it.

 

They have then referred her to the FOS as they have nothing further to add!

 

She still has to hear back re the PPI and why it was not originally cancelled but what would you suggest she does in the meantime?

 

Thanks all,

 

Bel

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Yes that is ''financial redress'' for their errors and should no affect any ongoing complaints.

 

Time a Formal Complaint was made to director level,.

 

Satans bank just get worse.

 

Do you mean that the default on CRA files has no date showing?

[BelstarBomb]

Hi Brigadier,

 

The DN had no date on it at all in which my friend should take action by, that's what I found so strange!

 

I have the email address of the CEO, worth a punt to him do you think?

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

"However, when looking at the remedy date, I noticed that there wasn't one!

 

In it's place it said that the remedy date was 14 days from date of service, nothing else! No you must pay by 20th Feb or we may do X, Y or Z."

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Does it state what is required to remedy the default amount needed?

[BelstarBomb]

Hi Brigadier,

 

Just double checked iwth her.

 

It states an amount but no date to pay that amount by.

 

Are you about to say that that still makes it sound even without the date?

 

However........

 

whilst we were talking, we suddenly realised that as Santander have now acknowledged that they should have cancelled her PPI at least 2 years ago, if not more should they find the communications from cahoot, then it goes without saying that the amount shown on the DN is wrong as it includes incorrectly levied PPI charges and interest on top to whenever they stopped charging interest.

 

She has also had a look thought the information that they sent for her SAR and it doesn't go back far enough, even though when she sent it, it covered the time when she asked to cancel the PPI via the cahoot account messenger.

 

What are you thoughts on them completely blanking the Notice of Arrears from andyorch?

 

Thanks Brig,

Bel

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I think the DN is to vague '' 14 days from date of service'', i guess they will work on 2 days for 1st class or 5 for 2nd.

 

Santander have been known to claim that they only keep data for 6 years, BUT it is actually for 6 years after an account is closed.

 

So challenge the SAR as incomplete and give them 7 working days to come up with the data you require.

[BelstarBomb]

Ok,

 

A little bit of movement.

 

My friend has called to say that Santander have now sent her a termination notice for the Flexible Loan (which they have now called a Personal Loan) for half the amount that was on the original default notice.

 

She has still to hear from them regarding the PPI as promised by the sender of below who said that the DN was perfect.

 

I think she should ask how they came to this figure as afar as she is concerned, she had originally indicated her wish to cancel the PPI 8 years ago via their contact manager to which they say they have no record. A rough calculation on that basis with 8% interest comes to a lot more than what they have reduced it by.

 

Also, they have still to respond fully to her letter of complaint.

 

What should her next steps be?

 

Thanks,

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

I forgot to say that the letter also stated that they have stated that they will either pass or sell the debt on for collection and pass on default information to the CRA's

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I forgot to say that the letter also stated that they have stated that they will either pass or sell the debt on for collection and pass on default information to the CRA's

 

This bit is standard!

 

I would suggest your friend asks for a complete breakdown as to how the ''termination'' figure has been arrived at an she now expects Satans to fully answer the complaints.

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

Very odd!

 

Just had a call from my friend who has received another statement from Santander. She has been away for two weeks and it arrived the day she left.

 

This one shows the PPI back on the balance but here's the odd thing - the balance was then zeroed! A credit was applied to the balance so it now stands at £0.

 

I asked her what else was in the envelope and she said nothing. No deed of assignment or anything. I asked her if she had received any other letters from DCA's etc and she said no.

 

Should she be cautiously optimistic?

 

Bel

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi, This indicates the account has been sold on to a Debt Purchaser, she will not get a copy of the deed of assignment, in the very near future she will receive a Notice of assignment from either Satans Bank or the debt purchaser or the debt purchasers assigned DCA.

[BelstarBomb]

That was my first thought Brig but I thought they legally had to send a letter advising her of this?

 

Also having admitted that they had applied PPI when they shouldn't have, taken it off, how can they add it back on and then sell it on??? How dodgy is that!

 

Bel

[AndyOrch]

Have to wait and see if it is assigned Belstar...NoA,s can follow after the actual assignment.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi Bel, I'm afraid that 's the way the system works, so now it's time to SAR Satans bank and get a PPI reclaim underway asap.

 

Brig.

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks Guys,

 

With hindsight I've just told her that this might be a blessing in disguise.

 

She has it in writing from Satan's Bank that they should have cancelled the PPI years ago and that the relevant department would be in touch. They never did.

 

That admission has a knock on effect on the DN not by a few £100 but by at least £6000... in her favour!

 

She also has a statement where they took their calculation of the PPI off.

 

Her complaints has still not been responded to in full.

 

I'm sure if a carefully drafted letter to whoever now owns this points all this out and confirms that she will be taking them to court for the return of 8 years worth of PPI plus interest , having paid peanuts in the £ to buy it from Satan, I'm sure they won't want to be paying out any more!

 

What do you think - she would rather just be shot of them

 

Bel

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I definitely think this is worth pursuing, and will happily help draft a suitable letter if required.

[citizenB]

Thanks Guys,

 

With hindsight I've just told her that this might be a blessing in disguise.

 

She has it in writing from Satan's Bank that they should have cancelled the PPI years ago and that the relevant department would be in touch. They never did.

 

That admission has a knock on effect on the DN not by a few £100 but by at least £6000... in her favour!

 

She also has a statement where they took their calculation of the PPI off.

 

Her complaints has still not been responded to in full.

 

I'm sure if a carefully drafted letter to whoever now owns this points all this out and confirms that she will be taking them to court for the return of 8 years worth of PPI plus interest , having paid peanuts in the £ to buy it from Satan, I'm sure they won't want to be paying out any more!

 

What do you think - she would rather just be shot of them

 

Bel

 

 

I would think now is the time to make the PPI claim to Santander, and then a letter to the DCA/New owner of the account explaining that they have been misled in respect of this purchase. That at the moment a dispute is in place in respect of the mis sold PPI that Santander have admitted - that if the new owner decides to take this further, then you will defend as vexatious.