Community Charge Arrears from 22 years ago!

[unclebulgaria67]

Community Charge

 

The council should not go to the magistrates court and ask for a liability order for community charge (poll tax) if the community charge was due more than six years before the liability order hearing. This means that the council can only pursue you for outstanding community charge if they got a liability order within 6 years of April 1993 at the latest. This rule is outlined in Regulation 29 of the Community Charge (Administration and Enforcement) Regs. 1989 (as amended 1991).

In practice the Council may go to Court and ask for a Liability Order for a Council Tax or Community Charge (Poll Tax) debt which is more than 6 years old. They will get it unless you put forward a Limitation defence at the hearing.

[unclebulgaria67]

Think you need help from Citizens Advice.

 

I think unfortunately, however wrong we may think this is, that once they had the LO (even though no evidence is now held), that they can pursue for as long as they like. There is no legislation in force that helps you, as far as I can see.

 

But check with Citizens Advice and if you have to pay, see if you can come to an arrangement.

 

Once you are aware of the situation, suggest that you raise the subject with your local MP. I don't think they will be happy that people are being pursued for a 22 year old debt.

[unclebulgaria67]

I wonder what the council would say if you said that you had informed them of your new address every time you moved and that as far you were concerned, you receive no notice of any payment still being outstanding.

 

Tell them that you are quite prepared for them to request committal proceedings in front of magistrates, where you would like to bring this matter to their attention. ( Get legal advice before you do this, as I would hate for you to be sent to prison).

 

I had just read a document from the law society in 2003, where is discussed some of these issues and it basically said that the community charge payer had very few rights and the councils could do pretty much what they wanted. They were issuing liability orders before peoples benefit claims were decided. The ombudsman got involved in one such case and found the council guilty of maladministration, after someone had committed suicide due to demands from the council for payment which could not be made.

[unclebulgaria67]

Fair-parking

 

That was a county court, where Judges could do that. When legislation was passed regarding community charge actions, they allowed these to be dealt with by magistrates. The magistrates were given very few reasons not to grant a liability order and it became a rubber stamping exercise. With a LO, you only have 14 days to go back to a magistrate to ask for a set aside. After that you have to go to the high court and ask for a judicial review which I expect would be really expensive.

 

There is nothing in the relevant legislation preventing a local authority continuing collection of the charge, based on a LO that is noted on their records. They don't have to have an actual copy. This is not in the legislation. The only thing that the OP can do, is cast doubt on the community charge still being outstanding after all these years. They may wish to involve their local MP to see if there is anything they can do. The MP might be able to make enquiries about what the OP can do and write to the local authority on their behalf. That is the only way I can see of putting a halt to collection.

[unclebulgaria67]

At which point FP surely the council could produce the alleged records on request from a magistrate or judge, to back up their fairy tale?

 

Only in front of a judge, but then you would be having a judicial review of the matter, which is going to be more expensive than the OP can afford.

 

Magistrates will not look into this, unless it gets to a committal hearing. The council would just evidence from their records that they applied for the LO and they have attempted to collect the debt over the years without payment. I read a long paper that appeared in the law society in 2003 and it was quite shocking to read, that councils appear to hold all the cards. The legislation did not provide much in the way of contesting how the way councils behaved.

[unclebulgaria67]

What is very worrying here is that without any doubt....your account will not be the only "vintage account" that Liverpool City Council would have re-opened and passed to their bailiff provider.

 

I have a friend who works in the Ombudsman's office and I will call her on Monday about this scenario.

 

Councils are struggling for money, so they are obviously going through very old accounts to see what they can find.

 

Is there such a thing as a 'super complaint' to the LGO, where they can be made to look into this and stop such old collections until it has had relevant review ? Perhaps ask your friend about the process for urgent reviews and who can ask for these.

[unclebulgaria67]

Guardian article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/1999/apr/14/guardiansocietysupplement4

 

In the OP's case the liability order was apparently obtained within the 6 year period, so can be chased for as long as the council like. It has not been written off, as far as the council are concerned. What legislation or case laws cite that a copy of the LO has to be provided to allow enforcement to continue

 

This article from 31/5/03 by Alan Murdie in the Justice of the peace is worth a read through.

 

http://z2k.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/council-tax-liability-order-hearing_justice-of-the-peace-310503_AM.pdf

 

My research says that this debt is enforceable and lack of a copy of the liability order from 1992 may not stop bailiffs being employed. Suggest that the OP makes a complaint about the council not being able to evidence the liability order and suggests that the council allow an urgent complaint to the LGO to go ahead.

[unclebulgaria67]

The OP should contact Citizens Advice in Liverpool as they have been dealing with the council in regard to these old Community charge cases for a ling time.

 

Here is a CAB report from 2008.

 

http://www.northliverpoolcab.co.uk/In%20Distress%20Bailiff%20Report.pdf

[unclebulgaria67]

"It has not been written off, as far as the council are concerned." But what does their accounting say ? that would be a fact rather than an opinion of the council. they may not have written them off, we don't know. Has to worth looking in case they have in fact written them off.

 

The OP says the council and various companies have been chasing this for years in one of their posts.

 

I have been reading up on this and Liverpool council have been issuing thousands of these demands for payment of very old community charges. This has been going on for the last few years. They were even chasing in one case, where the amount had been remitted/written off by a court.

 

The OP should definitely challenge this and I would advise that they get help from CAB, plus the MP if need be to help with this.

 

You raise an interesting point regarding 'accounting', but I think the council will say that they have a public interest duty to chase for all debts that had not been paid, whether or not they had been written off previous as bad and doubtful debts on any accounts.

[unclebulgaria67]

According to online reports Gaults & Co were accused in 2000 about some missing monies that they had collected on behalf of councils. There are no further reports online about this, so appears that the matter was not taken any further.

 

Cannot find any court ruling that helps with community charge arrears.

[unclebulgaria67]

If I were the OP, I would write back to the council saying that they had no intention of making any payment at this late stage and that they would like the LGO to review the matter.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes you have to exhaust the councils complaints process, before the LGO will get involved.

 

As well as your MP, also get Citizens Advice involved, as they were investigating this issue with Liverpool council a few years back.