Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[**Margaret**]

The Most Unreasonable Obstruction

(Cept for the pinocchios)

 

In reply to another member's request at #1008. Alas, he chose the most technology illiterate contributor to the forum. For what it's worth here goes, but if we've read the ad wrong, someone please correct us.

 

'...... Legal advice has been obtained to confirm that recording of assessments for the claimant must be allowed without unreasonable obstructions. The majority of the claimants who request that their medical assessment is recorded, do not have the financial means to provide the specified recording equipment.' (RFP 27: Recording Medical Assessments - Department for Work n Pensions)

 

'Atos Healthcare are happy for Work Capability Assessments to be recorded where requested.'

 

Could've fooled me.

 

Even she who knows how to do it can't get the links to work, so Google;

 

Thomann UK Cyberstore, then search for 202 MkV @ £354.43.

 

The same recorder's available from Amazon, with the ref 202 MK5, @ £436.02 via Cranford.

 

I'm not advocating that anyone spend £100s to get a messical recorded and I doubt :nolegion: is either. But live n let live, if it helps someone cope with DWATO? For anyone who's considering the idea I'd suggest a pre purchase enquiry to Shatos as to whether the 202 MkV'd meet their certification. Thus far, it appears that the only acceptable dual audio recorder is (wait for it, you guessed) the Neal 9102 Dual CD Audio Interview Recorder.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_dwps_continuing_and_illegal#incoming-356201

 

Sincerely, Margaret n Starryeyes.

Edited February 11, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Nystagmite:

 

Sorry, your dictaphone's got no chance cos there's only one copy. But, those who know more about it than me can't see a problem with using a laptop and then immediately copying to two discs, in the presence of the pinocchio. Except for the unreasonable obstruction that DWATO don't want messicals audio recorded.

 

Margaret.

Edited February 11, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Hi nolegion:

 

Thanx so much for your clearly written clarification of the issues in #1027.

 

After;

 

'Do you know how many points are needed for the support group?'

 

The next phrase guaranteed to drive me to distraction is;

 

'Atos've told me it's illegal/not allowed.'

 

 

 

Going to be so helpful to have your clarification to refer to. Explains it all far more clearly than I've ever managed to.

 

Thanx again, Margaret.

Edited February 15, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Ruby_Tuesday:

 

' am more confused than ever ......' Which is DWATO's intention.

 

I've quoted the legal theory at #1016. It probably missed the redaction pen when a DWATO clerk was doing freedom of info responses. If you're interested;

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rfp_27_recording_medical_assessm#comment-33289

 

There's no legislation as to how assessments are to be recorded so we're left with one piece of case law (CIB/3117/08 referred to at #974) and DWATO policy.

 

You can have an audio recorded messical. The realistic options for claimants are:

 

The DWATO way, which should get you an audio recorded messical, eventually. I've been waiting for seven months! Request one on page 2 of an ESA50 (as proof you've asked for one), then phone 08002 888777, or your regional Atos centre if you know the number.

 

Or:

 

Risk a covertly recorded by claimant messical. Tis legal and, at the discretion of the judge, the evidence is admissible at tribunal. But if the assessor susses, there's a very real risk of one's ESA55 file being returned to Jobcentreplus for failure to attend/submit. And subsequent disallowance of benefit!

 

Your comments about the Atos assessors are very valid. Most of them choose to opt out of recorded messicals.

 

Given the content of your posts I think you may find the following freedom of info request an interesting read. Especially the later questions and the annotations at the end.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/refusal_to_record_wca#incoming-313874

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

Edited February 16, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Guidance? Or lack thereof!:

 

Having read DWATO's initial response to the above mentioned request, and knowing how over-sensitive they've become, Margaret decided to be helpful. With reference to the above request, we've enquired as to whether the audio recorder detailed below meets their criteria for certification.

 

TA[problem] 202 MKV dual cassette recorder from Amazon

(site problem - link at #1019)

 

Guessing we're not going to receive a definitive answer anytime soon. Especially as DWATO are now out of time to respond to my request for a copy of the guidance document issued to their resources clerks.

 

One extra day in the naughty chair for every evasive or overdue response :?:

 

Margaret.

 

 

For clarification:

 

Neither CAG nor its contributors are actively promoting the purchase of a dual audio recorder. We're trying to illustrate the unreasonableness of Mr Hoban's 'reasonable conditions'.

Edited February 18, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Ruby_Tuesday:

 

You got the time and resources? Go for it. A lot of the progress to date has come through freedom of info requests. Including the revelation that DWATO ignored its own legal advisors for two years!

 

If you're comfy with technology, electronic requests via the :whatdotheyknow: site go straight into Caxton House, and get an automatic acknowledgement.

 

Alternatively, the address for snail mail:

 

Department for Work and Pensions

Caxton House

Toothill Street

London SW1H 9DA

 

Recorded delivery letters to Caxton House are signed for individually. Important for holding them to the 20 working days.

 

Margaret.

Edited February 19, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

: Well Practised to Deceive? :

 

Spot the difference? Won't be too difficult!!

 

http://whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_perfect_entitlement_of_claim#incoming-364053

 

http://whatdotheyknow.com/request/dwpatos_guidance_document_use_of#comment-35933

 

Towards the end of last year I had a conversation with Shatos (detailed at #955) about the acceptability, or not, of laptops for recorded by claimant messicals. Immediately the conversation ended, my husband realised there must be some written guidance for their resources clerks. Either that, or they're relying on telepathy, or one of their fabled crystal balls!!!

 

Margaret.

Edited February 26, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

: The Practice of Deceit? :

 

Concerning the Harrington audio recording of Atos assessments pilot;

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-recording-pilot-report.pdf

 

'DWP do acknowledge, however, that the statement posted on the Atos blog on 14 December 2012 does not accurately reflect the findings of the assessment evaluation, published by DWP earlier in the year. Dwp have contacted Atos to alert them to the error, and requested that it is corrected as soon as possible.'

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/claimants_wanting_recordings_dwp#comment-36114

 

Margaret.

Edited February 27, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Hi bigissue:

 

No known way, that I'm aware of, to ensure an officially audio recorded messical. Shatos simply don't have enough audio recorders (53 shared between 130+ permanent assessment centres) or pinocchios prepared to use them. Little wonder that claimants resort to covert recording.

 

A recorded delivery letter, sent now, to confirm your request for a recorded messical will serve as written evidence, should you need it, of your request. Shatos can't say they didn't know, when they somehow don't quite get around to arranging a recorded assessment. Last year several Members of Parliament rescued constituents from forced non recorded messicals; some of whom are still waiting for an appointment!

 

Work n Pensions policy is that they can insist on a non recorded assessment but they've not done so since the start of October 12. The usual senario with non compliant claimants is that Shatos reschedule the assessment; again n again n again n ......

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

 

 

From the Shatos blog:

 

'If the recording equipment is not available within approximately four weeks of you contacting us, we may need to ask you to attend an appointment without being able to meet your request - as the DWP have asked us not to delay claims for this reason beyond a reasonable point. In this case we would advise you and discuss possible alternatives.'

 

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/how-to-request-an-audio-recorded-assessment/

 

The possible alternatives are taking a companion or taking notes.

Not quite the same.

Edited February 27, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

: DWATO's Take on the Equality Act:

 

Guidance to Jobcentreplus staff states; 'Staff should also be aware that interviews can be recorded where it is a 'reasonable adjustment' requirement under the Equality Act 2010.'

 

Reasonable adjustments for interviews with Shatos? No chance!

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/equality_duties_recording#incomong-360031

 

Margaret.

Edited February 27, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

::rant:Shattered by Shatos:rant::

 

What Shatos want and what Shatos get could turn out to be two very different senarios.

 

Currently, I've a shedload of unanswered (despite DWATO being in the naughty chair) freedom of info stuff piled up cos I've been distracted by the fall out from non recorded farcicals. Sharn't have a shread of sympathy for the next pinocchio who ends up on YouTube!!!

 

Margaret:rant:

Edited March 22, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Ruby_Tuesday:

 

You n me both. N I suspect, lots of others.

 

Twelve months ago I was asking nicely for a recorded messical and wouldn't have dreamt of, or known how to do, a covert audio record. When DWATO push me to shove, which they've done this month ......

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

Disgraceful DWATO

 

#10 of;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?385175-Are-ATos-reliable-when-it-comes-to-recorded-WCAs/

 

Twas incredibly stressful but Shatos stopped short of 'force' or threat to her benefit. Neither have they returned her case to Jobcentreplus for failure to attend/submit. We checked! Always wise to be one step ahead, then confirm everything in writing!

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Really pleased for both of you.

 

And your experiences may help to scotch some of the rumours currently flying around the internet that 'Atos aren't allowing audio recorded assessments'.

 

Whilst it remains to be seen what happens with assessments for personal independence payments I don't see any evidence of a U turn over work capability assessments. Apart anything else, unless anyone's heard different, DWATO still have an outstanding judicial review to defend. (Patrick Lynch v Work n Pensions?)

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

:Pinocchio's Consent:?::

 

From Caxton House to Starryeyes on 14 December 12;

 

'The HCP must agree to the recording of the assessment'

 

From a resources clerk to Starryeyes on 21 December 12;

 

'...... you'll need to arrange it in advance so we can find a healthcare professional who's prepared to be recorded.'

 

From Caxton house to another freedom of info enquirer on 19 April 13;

 

'I can confirm that it is now within the job description of all Atos Healthcare Professionals (HCP) that they undertake recording of assessments if required to do so; this came into effect from 1 December 2112'. (My emphasis)

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wca_recording_hcps#incoming-381138

 

Although 'not in my/their contract' seems lost to pinocchios and resources clerks alike, I suspect Tatos'll continue to wheedle out of as many audio recorded farcicals as possible. Specially as (from a friend's enquiry this morning) Tatos don't appear to have told said resources clerks that pinocchios no longer have a choice as to whether they're recorded.

 

:evil: :evil:

Edited April 20, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Part One.

 

Monday morning! I'm half awake, and thinking about the info commissioner when thud! A large thick brown envelope hits the doormat. Some overdue freedom of info responses; reams of DWATO's repetitive rhetoric concerning audio recorded disability assessments. Taken from walls of text, about reasonable conditions, reasonable endeavours and acceptable formats (still restricted to audio cassettes and compact discs), the interesting bits:

 

'Is it necessary for the claimant to arrange an appointment, prior to their assessment, for personal recording equipment to be approved/checked ...... by Atos Healthcare? Yes or no?'

 

'Existing process does not specify that a prior appointment to check equipment must be made. The claimant is required to advise Atos Healthcare, in advance of their scheduled appointment, of their intent to have their assessment audio-recorded. Atos Healthcare will make the appropriate arrrangements with/for the claimant.'

 

'Existing process', this seems to be a change of process from earlier in the year. Praps no longer necessary? Lack of demand? Cos we don't have spare £100s to spend on dual deck audio recorders?

 

'Atos Healthcare confirms that, since 1 December 2012, participation in recording assessments has been standard practice for all practitioners and has formed part of their role description.'

 

About time too!

 

'The latest information provided by Atos Healthcare for the Midlands shows two machines available to the Nottingham Medical Services Centre and two for the Birmingham MSC.'

 

For them as needs to know.

 

Onward n upward, Margaret.

Edited May 1, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Part Two.

 

I've decided to transcribe one of the freedom of info responses in full. At a third attempt, I've finally got a complete answer to the question that was asked. But of more significance, I think, is what DWATO haven't said.

 

'Is there a printed process guide for claimants who, as a reasonable adjustment for disability, need the information in a written format because they cannot use a telephone? Yes or no?

 

'Information is available on the Atos Healthcare website for claimants who wish to have their face-to-face assessment recorded. ...... There is no separate printed process document for claimants.'

 

And the info on the website is To phone 08002 888777

As with parking and stairs, no reasonable adjustments for disability. Third party authority? In my experience, Atos aren't very good at that either.

 

Helpfully, DWATO enclosed 'an extract of the guidance, for use by Atos Healthcare customer service agents, which describes the infomation to be provided for enquiries about audio-recording.' It reads;

 

'If a Claimant requests that their assessment is recorded, the Virtual Contact Centre Agent (that's the call handler on 08002 888777 to thee n me) should confirm that arrangements will be made for the recording to take place. A mutually convenient appointment must be made with the Claimant for three weeks ahead. The appointment should be as early in the session as possible to avoid claimant sent home unseen, and take into account the additional time that will be required in order to arrange the recording.

The Regional Manager at the Medical Services Centre should be notified immediately that the appointment has been booked, and that recording is required. Notes must be put on Siebel, and an email sent to the Medical Services Centre Resource Team Inbox.

 

End of! As with the guidance for Atos assessors (discussed at #1093) there's absolutely nothing about the decidedly unreasonable conditions for recorded, by claimant, assessments when Atos can't source one of their own machines.

 

Margaret.

Edited April 30, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Karma:

 

The white envelope looked all innocent as it fluttered to the doormat without a whisper. Deceit! A DWATO invite!! Without indication of whether it's to be audio recorded!!!

 

#22 of;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?375733-Atos-Assessment-in-need-of-an-Audio-Recorder

 

Margaret.

Edited June 4, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

::?:Dictaphones:?::

 

On current evidence? Probably not!

 

Until DWATO prove otherwise it's dream on, and please don't waste time or money on the purchase of dictaphones cos DWATO'll be sure to find them unsuitable for one reason or another. And while we're about it, forget the dual deck cassette recorder capable of simultaneously recording two cassettes (T-A-S-C-A-M 202 MK.5).

 

With a friend we've been pursuing audio recorded by claimant assessments, without a glimmer of success, since February for the dual deck audio recorder and April for dictaphones. Thus far, DWATO's get out;

 

'Information regarding specific items of recording equipment is not held by the Department.'

 

And the guidance for Atos Healthcare personnel regarding audio recorded, by claimant, work capability assessments is allegedly to be found at;

 

Section 4.1.3 in the Work Capability Assessment Handbook.

 

And;

 

Section 19.1 in the Virtual Contact Centre Procedural Guide.

 

Neither of which offer guidance, beyond the usual rhetoric for simultaneous copies, to Atos personnel (or anyone else) as to the suitability of personal recording equipment for work capability assessments.

 

Margaret n Starryeyes.

 

:rant:

Edited June 8, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Ahhh Diddy Dum Dums:

 

 

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/06/atos-doctor-sickened-by-claimant-requests/

 

If Doctor Douglas can't stand the heat, praps he should consider getting out of the kitchen?

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

:Transcript:

 

Of the debate referred to in #1121 at;

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?s=audio+recorded+Atos+assessment

 

Enjoy , Margaret.

 

:flame:

[**Margaret**]

:Good News :?::

 

http://dpac.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/WCAAL1C_0713-21.pdf?eefd72

 

Now, that wasn't too difficult was it. Personally I'd have preferred the info about audio recorded assessments in the AL1 appointment letter. Or even better, where it should be; on the ESA50!!! But we can't be having that cos DWATO have neither machines nor personnel to cope. And, par for the course, they remain economical with the truth about audio recorded by claimant assessments. As does;

 

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2013/08/dwp-wca-audio-recording-frequently-asked-questions/

 

For newcomers to officially audio recorded by claimant assessments:

 

The machine has to be capable of producing two cassette tapes or compact discs recorded simultaneously. To date, the only machines for which there's written confirmation of approval are the Neal audio recorders used by DWATO, which have a minimum price tag of £1,400.

 

Earlier this year there was a suggestion from DWATO that two identical dictaphones might be an acceptable alternative, but so far as I know there's still no written confirmation as to an acceptable make/model. Not for lack of trying on my part since my latest appointment for an audio recorded assessment was cancelled in June. (Turned out that it was for lack of a pinocchio, but that's another story.)

 

In the meantime:

 

http://dpac.uk.net/2013/08/has-the-dwp-let-you-know-that-you-can-ask-for-your-esa-atos-face-to-face-assessment-to-be-recorded/

 

And:

For the AL1C enclosure, DWATO have abandoned the pretence that interviews for employment n support allowance are medical assessments/examinations.

 

Margaret.

Edited August 14, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Appropriate Devices and DWATO:

 

From Work n Pensions frequently asked questions;

 

'Claimants can use their own audio recording equipment - providing they use appropriate equipment that can provide two copies ......'

 

From the Tatos website;

 

'What recording equipment can you use? Acceptable media types at present are standard CD and audio tapes only.'

 

From the latest (07/13) AL1C enclosure;

 

'If you would like ...... to audio record the assessment yourself,'

 

Government ministers continue to reassure their colleagues and claimants alike, that claimants can record work capability assessments. In the wake of my latest let down from Tatos, the reality;

 

No response to enquiries of their customer relations, as to an acceptable make/model of appropriate device or dictaphone for openly recorded by claimant interviews.

A resources clerk offered to find out about Tatos approval process for dictaphones.

Advice from a resources clerk and a regional manager was to wait for one of their machines.

To date there haven't been any, audio recorded by a claimant using dictaphones, assessments in the East Midlands.

My assessment was cancelled cos 'the healthcare professional who does the recorded assessments was on sick leave'. Whatever happened to their amended contracts?

 

Three years after legal advice to the contrary, DWATO continue to make audio recorded by claimant work capability (and personal independence) assessments nigh on impossible.

 

Margaret.

 

The translation for appropriate devices appears to be; dual deck compact disc/cassette tape machines with a minimum price tag of £1,400 and, as yet unspecified, dictaphones.

Edited August 21, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:nolegion:

 

Being absolutely of DWATO's duplicity, after a month of evasion, fob offs and generally going round in ever decreasing circles, I'm watching the above mentioned freedom of info request as well.

 

Margaret.

Edited August 21, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Although DWATO have yet to find an audio recorder and an assessor who's trained to use it, at a Tatos centre I can access, they appear to have found some new info that neither I nor my doctor know about.

 

From Tatos:

 

Dated 27th August 2013

 

'We recently asked you to attend a medical assessment on 27th August 2013 ......

We have now received more information and we no longer need you to come to this assessment.'

 

My file's been recalled by Jobcentreplus. The processor wasn't saying why, but there's no suggestion of 'failure to attend'.

 

Payment of incapacity benefit will continue until I hear from them.

 

Suits me for now, Margaret.

Edited September 1, 2013 by **Margaret**