m4tttaylor vs Chartered Trust / Black Horse - Round 2!

[M4tttaylor]

Hi everyone, its been a long time since i last attempted to reclaim the pip premiums that were missold to me by Chartered Trust and Black horse between August 2000 and March 2005.

 

I last tried to reclaim in April 2008 to which i finally received a response from Black Horse basically telling me they were unable to uphold my claim. I do not know why it has taken a further 3.5 years for me to get my act together and get my money back.

 

A brief history... I took out my first loan for £1000 in August 2000, was asked to meet with Chartered Trust (part of Black Horse) before they could approve. At the meeting, the salesperson waved a cheque for £1000 in front of my nose and said i must take out the PPI otherwise i would not be approved for the loan. There were various other misselling techniques used which i now know about after reading various threads on CAG forums.

 

Cash price of the PPI - £188.24

Interest Rate per month - 3.43%

APR - 49.9%

Total amount payable - £287.56 (26 months).

 

This then spiralled out of control...

2nd loan started on 28/11/03 for another £1000. Exactly the same scenario again, but this time a lower APR...

 

Cash price of the PPI - £1163.24

Interest Rate per month - 1.524%

APR - 19.9%

Total amount payable - £187.92 (18 months).

 

3rd loan on 22/12/03 for £1700 consolidating loan 2 and taking a few extra quid.

 

Cash price of the PPI - £351.70

Interest Rate per month - 1.310%

APR - 16.9%

Total amount payable - £427.80 (30 months).

 

4th loan on 11/05/04 for £3000 consolidating loan 3 and taking yet more money.

 

Cash price of the PPI - £761.05

Interest Rate per month - 1.310%

APR - 16.9%

Total amount payable - £959.40 (36 months).

 

5th loan on 05/03/05 for £5000 consolidating loan 4 and taking yet more cash...

 

Cash price of the PPI - £554.83

Interest Rate per month - 1.453%

APR - 18.9%

Total amount payable - £779.97 (60 months).

 

 

The loan was paid in full a long time ago now and i have no ties with Chartered trust or Black Horse at all... Each time i wanted a little bit more cash, just called Black Horse, they invite me for a meeting (sometimes filling in paperwork for me before i arrive so i only have to sign!).

 

My first question (first of many) is how do you guys think i should approach this reclaim? Each loan agreement individually? Or do all of them at once? Should i do the calculations myself? I have all the agreements already so no need for the SAR (unless i need statements?)

 

Any help you guys could give would be very much appreciated, i remember claiming back the unfair bank charges and this site was an absolute god-send!

 

Thanks

[ims21]

Hi

 

You have rollover PPI.

 

Have a read of No1 in my signature....all the information you need is there. If you need help with the figures just shout and I'll be happy to help.

 

Ideally you will need to know the dates of payment so that you can work out the interest correctly and the balances on the accounts as they were transferred into the later loans.

 

You should deal with this as one rollover claim rather than individual claims.

 

Download the consumer questionnaire from the fos website ready for completion as well.

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Hi ims,

 

I'm struggling to get the figures right despite reading through your thread... Any chance of some assistance please?

 

Loan 1 - Loan = 1000, 62.84 x 26 month, PPI = 287.56, 11.06 x 26 month. First payment 01/12/00, paid all 26 payments.

Loan 2 - Loan = 1000, 63.94 x 18 month, PPI = 187.92, 24.68 x 18 month. First payment due 28/12/03, but not paid! (0 payment as paid in full by loan 3)

Loan 3 - Loan = 1700, 68.89 x 30 month, PPI = 427.80, 14.26 x 30 month. First payment made 22/01/04, paid monthly up to 22/04/04 (4 payments), remaining balance paid by loan 4.

Loan 4 - Loan = 3000, 105.06 x 36 month, PPI = 959.40, 26.65 x 36 month. First payment made 11/06/04, paid monthly up to 11/02/05 (9 payments), remaining balance paid by loan 5.

Loan 5 - Loan = 5000, 125.44 x 60 month, PPI = 834.80, 13.91 x 60 month. First payment made 07/04/05, paid monthly to the end.

 

So far i have used the spreadsheet to list the payments made... Loan 1 is easy enough, i have then added the value of the PPI from loan 2 to loan 3 PPI payment, i have then calculated the remaining balance of PPI from loan 2 and loan 3 when loan 4 starts and calculated that figure as a percentage of loan repayments of loan 4. This percentage loan payment then added to loan 4 PPI payment makes loan 4 entries to the spreadsheet. I then calculate the remaining balance of PPI 2, 3, 4 at the point of loan 5 starting, work out what percentage of the loan repayment this equates to and add it to the pip payment from loan 5....

 

Wow, i just read the above back to myself and it makes no sense to me at all... please help!

 

Thanks in advance...

[ims21]

Hi

 

No worries....bit tied up at the mo but I'll get something posted back for you either late tonight or tomorrow morning if that's OK.

 

These rollover ones can be a bit confusing but we can take it in small pieces and then it will all come together.

 

Regards

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Thanks mate... i won't be online till i get home from work tomorrow evening... so will maybe talk then?

 

Thanks

[ims21]

[ims21]

Hi

 

Sory didn't get on today but I'm doing some figs for you now....back soon

 

ims

[ims21]

Ok...going to do this bit by bit.

 

First loan is easy....in the spreadsheet just enter the 26 individual monthly PPI payment of £11.06 giving the date, the description and the amount. The sheet will work out your 8% interest on those payments.

 

ims

[ims21]

Can you check the figures you have given for loan 2 please....I can't seem to make them add up given what you say in posts #1 and #3.

 

Can you confirm the figures for the cash loan at £1,000 and the amount of the PPI loan was x?

 

When loan 3 took over loan 2, do you have a note of the amount of settlement of loan 2...should be somewhere in the region of the original amount borrowed on loan 2 plus a month's interest or so.

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Hi mate, I'm just on my way home from work at the moment, will get back to you in the next hour or so.

Thanks for your help, its really appreciated

[ims21]

No probs

 

In your own time

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

i'm back at last... been a long day!

 

Right, i think i made a mistake in post one. To confirm, loan 2 is as follows;

 

Loan amount £1000.00

monthly repayments - £63.94

Term - 18 months

 

PPI Total amount - £163.24

monthly repayment - £24.68 (to make total of £187.92)

 

Does that make sense????

 

You asked about the total amount repaid to loan 2 when loan 3 took over... unfortunately i don't have this figure. I guessed it would be the total amount of the loan, plus interest, plus ppi+interest...

[ims21]

Hi

 

Don't worry...no rush.

 

If we look at that loan, the total amount of the loan was £1,000 + £163.24 = £1,163.24.

 

Now you actually made no payments on this loan, i.e. you didn't actually part with any money to repay it. What actually repaid it was loan 3. Now, as loan 3 was taken out only about a month after loan 2, there would only have been a small amount of interest added to loan 2 before loan 3 settled it. It wouldn't have been the total amount of interest shown on the loan agreement.

 

So, as we are trying to calculate the 8% interest on payments actually made, we can ignore loan 2 as nothing was actually paid by you against it.

 

For the moment, lets assume that the balance on loan 2 when it was paid by loan 3 was the original amount i.e. £1,163.24. The PPI part of that was £163.24 so included in loan 3 is £163.24 for the ppi on loan 2.

 

With me so far? If so we can move on

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

yes, got it...

[ims21]

Hi

 

Don't get me wrong....not trying to imply you don't get it but sometimes if we take it in stages it is easier.

 

So loan 3 was for a cash advance of £1,700 of which £163.24 is the ppi from loan 2. That is 9.6% of the loan. So of your repayments of £68.89, 9.6% of those was for loan 2 ppi. You made 4 payments. 9.6% of £68.89 is £6.61 so in your spreadsheet you list 4 payments of £6.61.

 

AND you need to enter 4 payments of £14.26 which was the actual PPI attached to loan 3.

 

OK so far?

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Yep, i get it mate.

 

Thats great mate, its much easier doing it in stages like this... i thought id done it like this last time, but my total figure didn't end up anywhere near i expected, so its good to get your help...

[ims21]

He he

 

Ok so now we have to round off loan 3 and move on to loan 4. We need to find out what the approximate balance was on loan 3 when it was taken over by loan 4.

 

If you haven't already downloaded it, got the last post in the thread linked at No.1 in my signature and grab the LoanAnalysis spreadsheet.

 

Was the PPI amount on loan 3 £351.70?

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Loan 3 PPI was £351.70 plus total charge for credit £75.10, making a total of £427.80 (£14.26 for 30 months)

 

I'll download the spreadsheet now.

[M4tttaylor]

am i right with this...

 

After the 4 payments were made to loan 3, i would have paid £26.44 from the total of loan 2 leaving a balance of £136.80. I would have also paid a total of £57.04 towards loan 3 PPI total of £351.70 (should this include an element of interest?) leaving a outstanding balance of loan 3 ppi of £294.66.

 

PPI 2 balance is 3.6% of the total loan amount (136.80/3761.05 *100), therefore i should add to the spreadsheet 3.6% of £139.35 (loan 5 payments) = £5.02

 

Is that right??? That made my head hurt, so i won't carry on to work out the proportion of the third loan until you confirm i'm right, or let me know what I'm doing wrong!!!

[ims21]

Hi

 

Looking at it now

 

Back soon

 

ims

[ims21]

am i right with this...

 

After the 4 payments were made to loan 3, i would have paid £26.44 from the total of loan 2 leaving a balance of £136.80. I would have also paid a total of £57.04 towards loan 3 PPI total of £351.70 (should this include an element of interest?) leaving a outstanding balance of loan 3 ppi of £294.66.

 

 

Nearly there. £26.44 is correct (4 x £6.61). You are slightly out on the balance though. Remember that of the loan of £1,700, 9.6% of it was loan 2 ppi. In the loan analysis spreadie enter 1700 as the loan amount, 30 as the number of payments and £68.89 as the monthly repayment on the cash loan. After 4 payments you will see the balance on the loan is reported as £1,509.79. So 9.6% of that was the ppi balance i.e. £144.93. Admittedly very close to your figure. Make a note of £144.93.

Loan 3 ppi concentrates on the loan 3 ppi loan only. Use the same spreadsheet and enter £351.70 as the loan amount, 30 as the number of payments and £14.26 as the monthly payment. You will see that after 4 payments the balance is £312.37.

So after 4 payments, the total ppi balance is £312.37 + £144.93 = £457.30

Don't worry about interest....the bank's interest is included in your monthly repayments.

Lets deal with the bit below when we confirm that we agree the bits here in red.

 

PPI 2 balance is 3.6% of the total loan amount (136.80/3761.05 *100), therefore i should add to the spreadsheet 3.6% of £139.35 (loan 5 payments) = £5.02

 

Is that right??? That made my head hurt, so i won't carry on to work out the proportion of the third loan until you confirm i'm right, or let me know what I'm doing wrong!!!

 

Have a look at the bits in red above......are you with me?

 

ims

[M4tttaylor]

Hi everyone!

Further to the last 2 threads i had on here regarding my PPI case with Black Horse over 5 separate loans, thanks to the help of you guys i finally re-submitted the claim to the Financial Ombudsman Service who have now responded.

 

Brief History;

 

1st Loan taken in August 2000.

A further 4 loans taken out between 2000 and 2005 (each one paying off the previous loan and giving me extra funds).

Loans settled in 2006/2007.

April 2008 - Sent a letter to Black Horse requesting a full refund of PPI premiums paid.

April 2008 - Received a response from Black Horse informing me that they will not uphold my claim.

February 2012 - I finally realised Black Horse were wrong not to refund and so decided to write to Ombudsman asking for their help. I sent a completed Financial Ombudsman Complaint form along with a completed consumer questionnaire for each loan explaining why i feel the PPI policies were missold. I also sent a copy of all loan agreements and the correspondence received from Black Horse in 2008.

 

I have now had a response from the Ombudsman basically saying they cannot deal with my complaint as i have referred the matter to the Ombudsman more than 6 months after the final response received by Black Horse. The letter does go on to say that they can look into the complaint if they are satisfied that there are exceptional circumstances for the delay in referring the matter to them.

 

Can anyone please advise how i should proceed???

 

Basically, when i received the response from Black Horse in 2008 i just thought that was the end of it. It is only recently that i have been made unemployed and have finally had the time to look into it in more detail (i.e. the CAG forums). With all the adverts on the TV and in the newspapers, text messages i receive, letters, etc it has become apparent that Black Horse were wrong to not refund the missold PPI, which is why i am now pursuing. The extra money would be a life-saver now too seeing as i am completely out of work and been told i am not entitled to any benefits (except jobseekers allowance).

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

[ims21]

Hi

 

Is this the same issue as in this thread?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?327929-m4tttaylor-vs-Chartered-Trust-Black-Horse-Round-2!&p=3634012#post3634012

[dx100uk]

threads merged

 

dx

[M4tttaylor]

Full letter from Ombudsman....

 

Thank you for sending us details of your complaint.

 

It seems that you have referred the matter to us more than 6 months after the firm issued its final response to your complaint. I am sorry to have to tell you that we cannot deal with such cases unless the Ombudsman is satisfied that there are exceptional circumstances for the delay in referring the matter to us, or the firm does not object to our considering your complaint.

I have not yet told the business that you have asked us to consider your case and i do not know whether or not it will object. But if you would like to proceed please write to me and set out the reasons why there was a delay in sending us your complaint. Please include all relevant dates of the exceptional circumstances including any documentary evidence which you would like top rely on. Upon receipt of this, i will pass the complaint to our casework teams and let the business know that you want us to look at your complaint. If the business then objects my colleagues will be able to assess whether or not we can proceed.

I am returning your papers.

 

They sent me back all the correspondence and forms that i originally sent to them.