more transport investigations ltd woe - help my son please

[meili]

on 4/11/11

my son who has bought discounted ticket on line for a journey from Cardiff central to whitechapel london,

only realised he brought along a expired young person railcard though the valid one is at home.

 

As the booked train was about to leave, he tried to upgrade it to an adult one on the train.

just when he passed the barrier he was asked to show his ticket by an inspector.

of course he tried to explain the whole situation but the inspector told him he was just tried to cheat

and asked him for his detail and sign a letter then seized his £40 ticket and the old YP card.

 

at this stage my son has missed the train and didn't want to make that journey anymore.

 

now he received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd saying he might be prosecuted...

 

my point is this whole thing could have been stopped if someone was in front of the Barrier to check his ticket

so he could have been stopped to pass the barrier.

 

he feels like this is a trap to have the barrier open to let you pass then the inspector checked you

hopefully to find someone who make honest mistake. then they can profit from you.

 

Now I know why when I once also bought a advanced ticket and reached the opened barrier with some staff behind the barrier.

 

I didn't pass in fear I might make some booking mistake and want to wait him to come check my ticket first

but the staff has no intention to do so.

 

Finally he waved me in then checked my ticket.

 

He even showed he's annoyed that I stopped to pass the barrier.

 

I wonder if this is a way to try to profit money.

 

can they still prosecute my son even he's never on board the train.

Edited November 21, 2011 by meili
can they still prosecute my son even he never onboard a train.

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

We need to clarify some points here. You say that he never boarded the train but; 'As the booked train was about to leave, he tried to upgrade it to an adult one on the train'. Normally in these situ's involving discounted rail cards (family/YP ect) where they have either expired or the passenger hasn't got it with them, the opportunity is given for the passenger to purchase a new ticket. An 'upgrade' would not be an option however as the original ticket would be totally invalid anyway so a completely new ticket would be the only option. From what you have posted, I cannot see any grounds for prosecution unless you son had actually boarded the train or had given sufficient reason that he had fully intened to do so. That is the reason you need to clarify the above.

 

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[meili]

Actually my son started his journey from Cathay when he tried to buy a discounted ticket to go into Cardiff Central to start his booked journey to London. That's when the rail staff told him his YP card has expired. He asked if he can upgrade the ticket to adult ticket. The staff told him he needed to print out the ticket first before do so. So he bought a adult ticket to travel to Cardiff wanted to print off the ticket in the machine. During this process he noticed there's no sign on the screen that show the ticket was a discounted ticket from YP railcard. At this point he thought he forgot to tick YP card in the box when he bought it on internet and that this was a adult ticket, thinking if he was wrong he can still upgrade it on the train as per the conversation with staff in Cathay, giving him a false hope that it's do-able to upgrade it, and now you said it's impossible to upgrade. Then why the staff told him to print it out first. Actually he could have saved the £40 not printing it and claim the refund and buy a total new adult ticket to travel. Then this incident would not have happened. I asked him why he passed the barrier he said because there's no one in front of it so he walked pass. Yes, he intended to keep walking if no one stopped him, to check his ticket. But he was stopped just after the barrier anyway. He was told he can pay something like 100 to buy a adult ticket. In this case he can't afford it 100+40 he decided to abundant the trip.

[Smurftastic]

OK. This looks like 17.1

 

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has

with him a valid ticket.

 

because it was the other side of the ticket barriers. Can you ask him exactly why he was challenged after the barriers and before he boarded the train?

 

He should have excessed the ticket to full adult before passing the barriers so this is prosecutable but I would like to know what questions/answers he gave.

[SRPO]

OK. This looks like 17.1

 

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has

with him a valid ticket.

 

because it was the other side of the ticket barriers. Can you ask him exactly why he was challenged after the barriers and before he boarded the train?

 

He should have excessed the ticket to full adult before passing the barriers so this is prosecutable but I would like to know what questions/answers he gave.

 

That'll be a £20.00 fine then

[Smurftastic]

A PFN only applies after some travel or at least the doors shutting but the OP says he didn't board. What a compulsory ticket area is something else that I won't pretend to fully understand though behind a mechanical or physical barrier is a general guide.

 

Re reading it, were the barriers open? and that was why he was challenged (the first mechanical/visual check)? If so you could argue it will come under 18.1 - which requires him stepping on the train, so unless he admitted under caution (you do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence etc...) that he intended to avoid paying the correct fare, then no harm no foul.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Smurftastic

[RPI]

He could well be charged with RRA sec 5.3(a) which only requires an attempt to travel, by going through the barrier towards the train could very well be deemed an attempt to travel especially if he told the inspector that during questioning.

[meili]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies to my mum.

 

I'm the son in the op's post if you hadn't caught on.

 

To answer a few questions i was told at the information desk that i "could" upgrade my tickets to adult from y-p but she did not specify that i was only allowed to upgrade them before i went through the barriers. I collected my tickets from the collection machines and thought I might have forgotten to tick the Y-P box the night before therefore they were valid, in any case i only had about a minute left to catch my train so i assumed that i could catch the train and if my ticket was adult then it was fine and if it was not y-p then i could upgrade it.

 

I was stopped just after the barrier (before the platform) and an inspector asked to see my ticket and pointed out it was y-p, this is when i tried explaining to him my situation. Unfortunately I'm quite panicky in these situations and through some strange wording of the inspectors I may have said that had he not stopped me I would have gone throughout the journey without paying the full fare (albeit in that situation I thought I had paid the full fare.)

 

I tried explaining to him that I understood it was my own fault and mistake and that i'd be willing to pay the upgrade but he would not believe me, called me a liar and confiscated my tickets and invalid Y-Ps card.

 

In anycase I really wasn't trying to cheat the company or anything liek that, it was just a combination of me forgetting my valid railcard, panic if missing my train and having to deal with such a terrible inspector.

 

I'm not sure if any of this matters now as im about to send off a letter with a sort of appeal thing trying to explain the situation as the report handed in did not fully describe the situation in my opinion althoughi stupidly signed the report under duress -.-

 

Thanks anyway.

[Old-CodJA]

Sorry folks, ALL the advice about Byelaw 17 and the Penalty Fares appeal procedure is completely wrong I'm afraid.

 

There is no penalty fares scheme in operation in the Cardiff area so, no £20 PF notice and no appeal permissible under those rules.

 

I suggest that you send a clear photocopy of your new railcard with your letter. if they can see there is no break in validity between your old railcard and the new one, I expect that they will accept your appeal. Let us know if not.

[meili]

another letter received issued from an assistant prosecutor (TIL for ATW Trains) saying they are advised that the Rail Co sees no reason why this matter should not proceed as previously advised. an application for the issue of a summons may now be made. that if my son (us) wish to comment further before this matter proceeds, he has to respond in writing within 14 days. in the letter it mentioned that 'a charge alleging the strict liability breach of national Railway Byelaw 18 (2005) may be summonsed in this case. And the company is entitled to consider whether a more serious charge of 'intent to avoid a fare' could be alleged. These are matters that may be summonsed for hearing before a magistrates Court.

The thing that bothers me much is in that letter it keeps mentioning he has boarded the train (he was always behind the barrier when he was checked). Does it matter? as my son has told the inspector he would have proceeded to board the train if no one had checked his ticket. need advice please. just want this matter sort out asap in the best possible way!

[stu007]

Hi

 

Well I would respond and do as Old-CodJA has suggested in his post

[meili]

hi stu007, my son has already written to TIL with copy of his updated railcard before.

[stu007]

Hi meili

 

Just need to wait and see what they say hopefully good news fingers crossed.

[meili]

he had sent a letter and copy of the updated railcard then received that letter (reply) from TIL today.

[Old-CodJA]

The fact that a person who intends to travel is not actually on a train does not prevent the possibility of prosecution if there is evidence to show that he has used a ticket that was not valid to get through a barrier and does not have any valid ticket with him at the time. Being on a railway means anywhere on railway premises or rolling stock and the National Railway Byelaws are applicable.

 

The railcard rules are clear and say that if a traveller who has a railcard reduced fare ticket and cannot show the railcard at the time they are checked will be 'treated as if no ticket is held'. The railcard purchaser accepts that rule when they apply for the card.

 

If someone has used a ticket that was not valid for them to use just to get through a barrier so as to be able to get on a train the rail company could also go with a more serious charge of intent to avoid a fare. Ignorance of any law is not a defence

 

I am sorry if this offends, but it is important. You say (us) in relation to replying to their letter, but if your son is over 18 he has to deal with this himself because you were not present so any comment you make may be disregarded as hearsay. One thing that is not clear to me is that you say he has sent a copy of his 'updated railcard'. Was there a break in validity between the one he did not have and that updated card?

 

A point I meant to cover in Smurftastic's post is that a spot check of tickets by inspectors can be made anywhere on a railway and it is common practice for revenue teams checking for misuse of railcards and season tickets to do this after a barrier in some areas.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[meili]

he always has the correct railcard but forgot to swab with the old one in his wallet.

This happened not long after he turned 19. I know he has to deal with it but as a parent we always tries to help and gathers as many advices we can. As this matter really disturbs him from his studying, we really want this sort out asap with the least trouble.

He's trying to contact a solicitor to get some advice. Actually can he contact the tel no on TIL's letter to ask what they really want to have this matter settled?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I wouldn't rush to see a solicitor until you have one or two more opinions here. Not every solicitor knows about rail matters from what I've read here and it's likely to cost you money.

 

Hopefully someone here will answer the question about contacting the rail company again, because it's possible to settle right up to the court hearing if I've understood what's been said on the forum.

 

You might not like everything the guys here tell you, but they're from the industry and they know their stuff and have helped plenty of people in the past.

 

My best, HB

[MrGates]

Was the new railcard dated to same day that the offence took place or was there a gap?

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, if there is a contact number on any letter it is always worth your son ringing. In my experience it is rare for any case to be settled by telephone and virtually unheard of for a settlement to be agreed with someone else where another adult is concerned, but always worth a try.

 

HB is right, your son could engage a solicitor, but he needs to bear in mind that it needs to be someone with good knowledge of criminal law in relation to railway legislations. Perhaps there is a good firm local to you, but from your posts, it does not seem that he has received a summons yet unless I have read it wrongly.

 

If he has had a summons and has been charged with the strict liability byelaw offence, the problem is that consulting a solicitor may only result in a lot more expense and nothing at all gained.

 

I asked the same question as Mr Gates about the railcard out of interest because some companies have a policy of settling matters if it is a first offence and there is no break of validity, but they are not forced to do so. In my experience, the offence that is most likely to be stated in these sort of cases is fail to show a valid ticket.

[meili]

Hello, tis the son again.

 

To answer your question about the validity of the railcard, basically i'm with Natwest and so i get a new railcard every year. I'm fairly sure that there is no break in validity between my out of date night and my in date one.

 

My biggest worry at the moment is the legal fees required to hire a solicitor. I have heard that full time students can apply for free legal aid though? Anyone heard of that? I'm going to go into my union tomorrow morning and ask for help there to see what my options are.

 

The thing is i'm seriously seriously stressed with university work at the moment to the point where i'm literally in my building working at least 10-13 hours every day seven days a week and i don't have time to deal with this so i just want the simplest way to get this all done as soon as possible. I'd really appreciate any help or advice you guys can give me.

 

Thanks

[Old-CodJA]

In practice it does not matter whether there is a break in validity or not, although it might help if that particular rail company have a policy with regard to railcards left at home.

 

In fact, they do not have to give that any consideration because the basic offence is failing to show a valid ticket when asked and if that is what you are charged with you cannot generally get legal aid so far as I am aware, because conviction for that offence is not imprisonable.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

From OC in post #19

 

HB is right, your son could engage a solicitor, but he needs to bear in mind that it needs to be someone with good knowledge of criminal law in relation to railway legislations. Perhaps there is a good firm local to you, but from your posts, it does not seem that he has received a summons yet unless I have read it wrongly.

 

If he has had a summons and has been charged with the strict liability byelaw offence, the problem is that consulting a solicitor may only result in a lot more expense and nothing at all gained.

 

My best, HB