Unpaid Fares Notice

[The Urbanite]

Thought I'd gauge the opinions of some of the resident experts.

 

I arrived at an EMT Penalty Fares station. It was 7pm and the ticket office was closed. TVMs were available. I wanted to buy a Priv Rover plus a couple of split tickets compliant with the NRCoC Condition 19(b) and because of the rover, also 19©, to get me to London. I sought advice from the gateline assistant. He opened the barriers, let me through and told me to buy a ticket on board.

 

Long story short, the guard on the train refused to sell me the tickets I wanted to buy. I was offered the option of a Priv Anytime Return from my point of origin to London, but she was not willing to sell a Priv rover or split tickets. I declined given it was far more expensive and more restrictive than what I wanted. So she issued me with a UFN.

 

Had the gateline assistant told me that buying a ticket from the TVM to the next shack would have covered my ar*e then I would have done that. He cheerily let me through and told me to buy on board. Because of this, I think that not paying the UFN would lead to a RoR 1889 Section 5(3) prosection, because it's given in Byelaw 18(3) parts ii and iii that I was not in breach of the Byelaw 18(2) requiring me to buy a ticket. Penalty Fare posters and the EMT website state that a ticket should be bought at the earliest opportunity or on board if not possible at the starting station, including if the range available is restricted.

 

The guard on the train didn't want to believe that the ticket office was shut - and was also frustrated when I said I intended to buy three seperate tickets to cover that journey, telling me that she had a whole train to check and dispatch duties to do. She also said that as I was staff, I should know better that to turn up to a small station at 7pm expecting the ticket office to be open and that I deserved to be penalised for starting my journey at a time when the ticket office was shut. She reiterated that as I was staff, I should have known better.

 

Yes, I know comment on the staff's attitude is tedious - but I work for the railways and was in a role in revenue protection so I feel it's relevant to mention that what she was saying was out of order. I felt there was a stalemate so without being asked, I volunteered my name and address and asked for a PFN or TIR/MG11 to be done. She took my name, disappeared to telephone control and returned having found out my home depot and grade, telling me she was going to write a report on the incident, of what type I have no idea.

 

Do I have grounds for a successful appeal? The plan is to pay the UFN then appeal as I don't require the stress of mounting fees and summons should the initial appeal be unsuccessful.

[SRPO]

Just find out the name of the gateline assistant, it appears to me that they haven't a case against you.

[Smurftastic]

I think you should tell your boss what happened before the revenue protection dept call him/her.

 

As you realise, you can't ignore a UPF notice especially when they know where you work. You owe a fare, though I understand the amount is disputed. I would say don't get too technical and to call the RPI manager to politely explain yourself. The guard does have a lot of duties to perform and from what you are saying here, I would guess that you might have got her back up with lots of technical arguments when all she wanted to do was sell a few tickets and dispatch her train.

 

The last thing I would say is that priv discount is a non contractual benefit and can be withdrawn at any time - it is not a right it is a nice thing that the company does for you.

[RPI]

It's funny how the guard had so many things to do but still had time to issue a UFN! I should appeal, you have adhered to the NRCoC.

[Smurftastic]

The guard was doing her duties ie collecting revenue due.

 

He has been reported for at the very least a UFN which while I'm not familiar with but I would have thought was non appealable.

[The Urbanite]

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[The Urbanite]

The guard was doing her duties ie collecting revenue due.

 

He has been reported for at the very least a UFN which while I'm not familiar with but I would have thought was non appealable.

 

That tells me all I need to know about what you know. The whole point of this thread is for advice on dealing with a UFN. Not unhelpful comments from people who don't know anything but feel they should add their tuppence worth.

 

Cheers anyway.

[The Urbanite]

It's funny how the guard had so many things to do but still had time to issue a UFN! I should appeal, you have adhered to the NRCoC.

 

She had time to take down my details, disappear down the train to call Control to verify that the ticket office was actually closed, obtain my home depot/grade details and have a discussion over what tickets they thought it was appropriate to offer me. Then fill out a UFN. The only thing she didn't have time to do was ask me if I wanted to pay any of it before she filled it in. The first I knew she was going to issue it was when she returned with the UFN form already filled out. I expressly asked to pay the due amount, or at least some of it and she refused, because she'd already completed the form.

 

I've spoken to a few members of relevant staff at EMT. The concensus is that she was wrong in refusing to sell what I asked for and should the IAS decline to uphold the appeal, they would pledge full support in getting it written off.

 

The main problem now is that the TM refused to provide her Authority Number even though I asked for it. One can't appeal online without it so I have extra hassle to contend with by having to post it off. The nearest post office is three miles from where I am this week and I already have a full schedule of things to do. It's a real nuisance but it's important I get the UFN record struck off. I've paid it in full as I don't need the stress associated with the debt chasers but I've prepeared an appeal document which will go off ASAP.

 

Just find out the name of the gateline assistant, it appears to me that they haven't a case against you.

 

Duly done.

Edited November 21, 2011 by The Urbanite

[Smurftastic]

My apologies for trying to try and help you in this public forum with a situation that was so minor and that you obviously knew absolutely everything about how to resolve it successfully. Obviously your collogues will be able to advise you completely and the ignoramus guard was acting well beyond her and her controls abilities. I am certain as I can be in my incompetent experience that you will be suitably compensated for having to demonstrate inconvertible evidence of your innocence.

 

ps do i get 3d for this when you loss your passes?

[MrGates]

Could the gateline staff member not have issued the priv ticket to save all the hassle, her authority number should be on the UFN she handed to you, i strongly agree with you that you have grounds to appeal this issue.

[The Urbanite]

Could the gateline staff member not have issued the priv ticket to save all the hassle, her authority number should be on the UFN she handed to you, i strongly agree with you that you have grounds to appeal this issue.

 

Unfortunately not as he wasn't equipped with a ticket machine. The guard refused to fill out the Authority Number box even though I specifically asked her to. Now I can't appeal online.

[The Urbanite]

My apologies for trying to try and help you in this public forum with a situation that was so minor and that you obviously knew absolutely everything about how to resolve it successfully. Obviously your collogues will be able to advise you completely and the ignoramus guard was acting well beyond her and her controls abilities. I am certain as I can be in my incompetent experience that you will be suitably compensated for having to demonstrate inconvertible evidence of your innocence.

 

ps do i get 3d for this when you loss your passes?

 

Your sardonic attitude just goes to show that you have no useful understanding of this type of situation. Given I asked for help on a matter specifcally regarding UFNs, which you have said you are unfamiliar with, why did you feel the need to post? Perhaps unfamiliar is an understatement as you didn't even know that they could be appealed against. I'm not here to argue with antagonistic trolls - I did specifically ask for contributions from persons with experience in this field.

[RPI]

Unfortunately not as he wasn't equipped with a ticket machine. The guard refused to fill out the Authority Number box even though I specifically asked her to. Now I can't appeal online.

 

Its a shame you paid, because if the notice didn't have an authorised person number then it is in-complete and therefore not valid! I think you should now write to EMT customer services and see what they have to say, you may get some vouchers as you were entitled to the tickets that you required.

[tiredTraveller]

That tells me all I need to know about what you know. The whole point of this thread is for advice on dealing with a UFN. Not unhelpful comments from people who don't know anything but feel they should add their tuppence worth.

 

Cheers anyway.

 

Your sardonic attitude just goes to show that you have no useful understanding of this type of situation. Given I asked for help on a matter specifcally regarding UFNs, which you have said you are unfamiliar with, why did you feel the need to post? Perhaps unfamiliar is an understatement as you didn't even know that they could be appealed against. I'm not here to argue with antagonistic trolls - I did specifically ask for contributions from persons with experience in this field.

 

I don't really have any knowledge of the processes and procedures in play here, but reading the tone of some of these posts, and working on the theory that this is how you conduct yourself on a regular basis I'm starting to get the feeling the unwritten rule of 'service is proportional to attitude' may have been a contributing factor here.

[MrGates]

If i were you i would report this member of staff for not fulfilling her duties, her authority number missing makes the notice in-valid as pointed out by RPI and if asked for must be supplied, and if she came back with the notice filled out was you actually able to sign for it as acceptance? plus you also offered to pay the notice with she again declined to take notice of.

[The Urbanite]

I don't really have any knowledge of the processes and procedures in play here, but reading the tone of some of these posts, and working on the theory that this is how you conduct yourself on a regular basis I'm starting to get the feeling the unwritten rule of 'service is proportional to attitude' may have been a contributing factor here.

 

Fair point but not the case. I'm actually ridiculously polite in reality. I never raise my voice or behave rudely towards fellow railway staff. Some people are incredibly stubborn by nature and certain guards are not exempt from this.

 

I'm also very polite even when the guard blatantly has gaps in their knowledge. I always use split tickets on express trains because it works out to be the cheapest option. I always have either a railway rover or my annual Zone 1 - 2 Travelcard. By virtue of Condition 19© of the NRCoC, I can buy as many extension tickets I like for one journey without the requirement for the train to stop. I have had this confirmed with one Pricing Manager and ATOC.

 

Do guards know it's actually permitted by the rules? 99% of them probably don't and hence I expect it to be flagged up when my tickets are checked. The first thing I say is "I know that normally, the train must call at the splitting points, but as I have a period ticket, I can use a through service.” 50% of the time the guard will leave it, when I poke fun at the complexity of the rules and make a specific reference to 19©. The rest of the time, the guard either checks with colleagues who invariably don't understand the rule either, or act like they're doing me a favour by "letting me off" The last time, the guard repeatedly cut me off and wouldn't let me speak - he kept saying "No, your tickets are NOT valid." After the 5th time I requested to explain myself, he was quiet. I explained I worked in revenue protection myself and I brought up the NRCoC, showing the rule in question. He said "look, I've had 20 years in this business. You've had one. I think I know a little bit more than you do. On this occasion Ill let you off as you seem to have made a mistake, which I think is more than fair. However, if I hope I don't see you again, if I do, I'll withdraw your pass and it could affect your job. " At this point I said thank you and nothing else. A passenger sitting in the seat opposite said that he thought the guard was condescending, rude and out of order and would have happily backed me up if he had knowledge of the conditions I was using. I couldn't possibly comment.

 

One thing I should mention was that I did work in revenue protection. I know exactly what it's like, hence my politeness and willingness to jokily point out that the rules are ever changing. Because I liked my job, I had read every single clause of the Byelaws, Code of Practice, NRCoC, TfL CoC, Oyster on NRCoU, RoR Act 1889, every single page in The Manual and everything else applicable to the job. So I know how convoluted it is and if a customer sent to me claimed there was some rule which conflicted with what I knew, I'd take a minute to check and behave fairly either way. As I customer I go one step further, as I have each document on my laptop I make it easy for the guard. It's not hard to tell the difference between someone who's trying it on and someone who might know something that you don't. And no, I don't ever attempt to make the guard feel stupid by mocking the fact that they don't know about a single sentence tucked away in a fairly long document. I more bring their attention to it in an as light hearted way as possible.

 

Perhaps you might like to tell me that all guards are reasonable people and it's the customers that are invariably the problem with their attitudes. Yes, the majority of passengers might find themselves in breach of some condition and it's down to the guard how harsh or lenient they are in terms of enforcement. Customers may well like to argue their case and no doubt can be insolent in doing so.

 

Perhaps you might also agree with the guard that as I'm railway staff, I should have known better than to start my journey at a time when the ticket office was shut. You may also agree with her saying that I should have bought the tickets when I last travelled a week ago, given I told her where I was staying was three miles away from the station and I didn't know when I was returning. You might also agree with her saying that I deserved to be penalised because the ticket office was shut. And you might also think she was correct to refuse to take any payment at the time for the UFN and refuse to provide her Authority Number, making it impossible for me to use at least two methods of appeal which are actually printed on the reverse side of the UFN.

 

The funny thing is, none of the EMT staff who I've told about the incident could believe that she went on like this once she found out that the ticket office was shut. In fact, nobody in the industry I've told about it agreed with her course of action.

 

Some people who take advantage of these kind of rules in all legitimacy say that it's the guard's job to know them and complain when challenged. I don't take that line of thought because as I say, the rules are so cumbersome that you cannot reasonably expect all staff to know every single one. Hence as a customer I go above and beyond to politely justify the tickets I use. But, you are well within your rights to assume that railway staff invariably have a pro-customer attitude and it's all the customer's fault.

Edited November 22, 2011 by The Urbanite

[Old-CodJA]

Given that you clearly believe that you are right in every aspect of this transaction and that your interpretation of the rules is the definitive article, I am somewhat surprised that you should feel the need to bring it onto a public forum and state that you are seeking advice?

 

I get a feeling that there may be more to this than a one-sided examination of the incident can convey.

[The Urbanite]

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[Old-CodJA]

An Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) is similar to a PFN, but carries no penalty.

 

It is an opportunity to appeal against the fare demanded and which has gone unpaid.

 

If not paid or successfully appealed in due time (21 days) it can result in prosecution of a Byelaw Offence in relation to 18.2, or where evidence supports the charge, Section 5.3.a RRA (1889).

 

It is very easy to determine who issued it because the pads are locked stock, numbered and issued to individual staff.

 

It will not have an AP number because unlike a Penalty Fare the issuer does not have to be specifically badged.

[The Urbanite]

Given that you clearly believe that you are right in every aspect of this transaction and that your interpretation of the rules is the definitive article, I am somewhat surprised that you should feel the need to bring it onto a public forum and state that you are seeking advice?

 

I put my interpretation out there so it could be judged whether it's right or wrong, which neither Smurftastic or tiredTraveller have attempted to do - generic advice not addressing the case in point and moral superiority posts are not what I asked for and are not helpful. I appropriately named the thread "Unpaid Fare Notice." Somebody who admitted they don't even know the first thing about UFNs somehow felt that it was appropriate to post in this thread, then insinuates I've done something involving the abuse of my facilities, without explaining exactly what it was they think I did wrong. Given that I specifically requested the opinion of somebody experienced on the grounds that I might have for appeal, that isn't helpful in the slightest, it's counter-productive stirring.

 

Then, somebody else comes along and decides there must be a parallel between my real life conduct and my way of addressing the above troublemaker on here. Again, not offering any advice as requested in my original post. It would seem that some people here choose not to offer any constructive advice but get some form of moral superiority from adding their 2p of judgemental comments.

 

That aside, I came to ask for an expert's opinion on the matter - precisely because I'm not certain of my interpretation and would appreciate a few opinions from those who do know about it.

[The Urbanite]

An Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) is similar to a PFN, but carries no penalty.

 

It is an opportunity to appeal against the fare demanded and which has gone unpaid.

 

If not paid or successfully appealed in due time (21 days) it can result in prosecution of a Byelaw Offence in relation to 18.2, or where evidence supports the charge, Section 5.3.a RRA (1889).

 

It is very easy to determine who issued it because the pads are locked stock, numbered and issued to individual staff.

 

It will not have an AP number because unlike a Penalty Fare the issuer does not have to be specifically badged.

 

I've paid it - but if I didn't, at what stage would it become fare evasion? Would Byelaw 18(3) iii have any relevance, given a member of gateline staff in the course of his duties opened the barriers and permitted me to board the train and get a ticket from the TM? For the RoR Act Section 5 to reach a guilty verdict, at what stage would it be decided that I had intent to avoid paying the fare? The on-train circumstances or from the point the UFN wasn't paid?

[Old-CodJA]

I've paid it - but if I didn't, at what stage would it become fare evasion? Would Byelaw 18(3) iii have any relevance, given a member of gateline staff in the course of his duties opened the barriers and permitted me to board the train and get a ticket from the TM? For the RoR Act Section 5 to reach a guilty verdict, at what stage would it be decided that I had intent to avoid paying the fare? The on-train circumstances or from the point the UFN wasn't paid?

 

 

In your case the Byelaw 18 charge could not succeed if you could show evidence that you were given authority to board the train without a ticket.

 

Like a PF, the UFN could be cancelled after 23 days have elapsed without payment or appeal following issue of the notice.

 

At that point the TOC could proceed to issue a Summons and would go for S.5.3.a. RRA(1889)

[Grotesque]

An interesting case. Urbanite, the way I see it, since you were allowed through the barriers (which I'm sure you were, but as evidence, you will need to prove?), that does not only allow you to purchase your ticket on the train, but to purchase the ticket that you would otherwise have been able to purchase at the ticket office for the immediate journey. So you couldn't turn up and ask the Guard to flog you an APEX for two weeks time. But a ticket/s for immediate travel? No problem.

 

On edit: Re: previous issues with posters I have been both a Guard / Booking Clerk / and RPO... and that makes me no more worthy of providing advice than anyone else on this board

Edited November 29, 2011 by Grotesque
My qualifications, if required ;)

[Old-CodJA]

At that point the TOC could proceed to issue a Summons and would go for S.5.3.a. RRA(1889)

 

By way of explanation, the most likely reasoning would be that the Guard/RPI applied that basic legislation

 

In simple terms S.5 of the RRA says the traveller must show a valid ticket on demand, or pay the fare if asked, or give name and address if asked

 

You failed to show a valid ticket, were asked to pay the fare and refused, but provided your details when asked. If it remained unpaid and not successfully appealed, the TOC could show they had made every effort to resolve the matter administratively without success.

 

In my view, if you had paid the fare asked and then followed that up with a complaint and appeal, you would have been reimbursed and the Guard/RPI spoken to and 'retrained' to some extent.

[The Urbanite]

Update: Unpaid Fare Notice cancelled. A refund of the price I paid and the price of a Priv Single from the station in question has been issued by cheque.

 

By way of explanation, the most likely reasoning would be that the Guard/RPI applied that basic legislation

 

In simple terms S.5 of the RRA says the traveller must show a valid ticket on demand, or pay the fare if asked, or give name and address if asked

 

You failed to show a valid ticket, were asked to pay the fare and refused, but provided your details when asked. If it remained unpaid and not successfully appealed, the TOC could show they had made every effort to resolve the matter administratively without success.

 

In my view, if you had paid the fare asked and then followed that up with a complaint and appeal, you would have been reimbursed and the Guard/RPI spoken to and 'retrained' to some extent.

 

The reason she gave for refusing to sell me the Rover (and thus the extension tickets) was basically that she did not want to issue the rover as she felt that she'd get into trouble for selling something that was not an Anytime ticket. No allusion whatsoever to the requirement to buy a valid ticket for part of the journey.

 

The present wording of the NRCoC Condition 3 allows people holding a valid ticket for part of their journey to be penalised if there was no opportunity to purchase an appropriate extension ticket prior to the journey. Say I started this journey at Derby (I didn't.) If I had a Derby - Spondon season ticket, what should I have done, bought a Derby to Spondon single to cover myself? Because of the wording, it is implied that holding a valid ticket is not enough to travel without being penalised - one has to buy another one as well.

 

Unfortuantely, this means that although I held a valid ticket for part of my journey (an Annual season ticket,) I still would have been liable to pay the full fare. At least I know for next time. This Condition 3 doesn't even say that you need to pay anything near the value of the ticket you wanted to buy - it just says that you need to cover part of your journey. This ingenious idea of getting rid of PTT machines seems to be largely academic - instead of 5p to Anywhere tickets, what's to stop people buying a £1.50 ticket from a TVM and chancing it with no risk of punishment if caught out and asked to buy a ticket? It's very easy to claim that you wanted to buy a split ticket, or buy a ticket somewhere like Boundary Zone 6, or some other ticket that a TVM can't sell.

 

Hence, Condition 3 makes conditions forbidding the act of overriding completely unenforceable if the ticket office was shut at the point of origin and the traveller is savvy enough to have a destination or ticket type in mind they know the TVM cannot sell. Of course, it is entirely fair that someone in my situation, who holds a season ticket for part of the journey, cannot buy the appropriate discounted ticket from the TVM, is told by a gateline assistant to purchase ticket on board, has seen notices produced by EMT saying that the guard should be seen if it's not possible to buy the appropriate ticket at point of origin and asks the guard to buy the relevant tickets, should of course he liable to pay the full fare for the whole journey.

 

Would I be the only person on this forum who thinks that there might be something wrong with the way that rule is worded? Or perhaps it's one of those situations where the TOCs are well aware that they have little way stopping determined fraudsters and that getting £1.50 out of them is better than getting nothing, even if it does mean that well intending passengers get caught up in the net?

 

As for the refund, at the time I thought there would have been no chance. I had no further opportunity to buy my rover starting on that date so I would have been asking Customer Services to give me a refund for a Priv ticket I was charged for on board. At the time I wouldn't have thought they would be likely to entertain the idea of a free ride on a technicality. If this happens again, which it might as I can get called to London at very short notice in the evening when the ticket office is shut, I will keep this in mind.

 

I will be complaining about the guard as she was unjustifiably unprofessional, broadcasted details of my employment which I refused to provide her with in front of other passengers and refused to let me pay any of the UFN at the time.

Edited December 22, 2011 by The Urbanite