Victim of a dodgy dealer and wacked on the head by the legal system

[aradam]

I am left disappointed, deflated with high blood pressure after 8 months of battle with car dealer, I will tell the story from scratch as my other thread got to messy and to long.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?267594-SOGA-how-much-is-the-chance-to-win-a-court-case

I am trying to come to terms with the situation, and see if there is an other way to get justice.

I have always been quite calm and reasonable person, but now I can understand people who torch a company, at the moment I would happily see that dealed burn down.

[aradam]

Part 1

 

After coming to the United Kingdom it was a bit of a struggle to keep things together, you have to deal with different systems and different laws.

 

As a start I got ripped off by mister Clutch in Luton, who changed my clutch in my Dutch car,

and when they sold my car in the Netherland the new owner went on holiday with his caravan,

and after 6 miles the clutch went, they had a look at it and the clutch was completely worn

then I got ripped off by my land lord who refused to give back my deposit, all an all a total loss of £2000

 

As there was a lot off pressure on me job wise and not enough knowledge of the UK rules and regulations

I decided to leave things cut my loss and focus on jobs and house.

 

Things were not as easy as I hoped I had to give up my first job because all colleagues that I was carpooling with got different jobs and I couldn’t afford commuting so I found a job closer to home.

 

The contact of this company was taken over and we had to commute 27 miles to work again.

 

When my mother in law passed away she left us some money, so we thought is was a good idea to part exchange our VW Passat 1.8 T with 167000 on the clock for a more economical and family orientated car.

 

On 21 February 2010 I bought a 2004 Renault Scenic for £3500.

The dealer told me - except a side window mechanism - there was nothing wrong with the car I noticed a crack in the front windscreen,

the dealer hadn’t seen this he said he would fix those two issues and we decided to buy the car.

I left my car papers of the Passat as a down payment and he said we could collect the car in two weeks.

 

After a short time I noticed the check injection light lit up sometimes but when I released the throttle a bit it disappeared again,

I had a look on the internet and found different possible causes for this problem but nothing to worrying, I didn’t have guarantee on the car.

 

After a couple of days I showed the car to a colleague and he noticed that the underside off the engine cover was soaked with oil or diesel.

 

I checked if something was spraying or leaking, some of the connections of the high pressure diesel system were tighter than others so I tightened them.

 

I had a look at the air filter and that was completely filthy, so I decided that I would do a little service.

 

I changed the air filter and the glow plugs, the reason I changed the glow plugs was that it was given as one off the solutions for the check injection light problem.

 

As I didn’t have any guarantee on the car and I thought these were minor problems and I decided to bring the car to a garage for an oil change based on the discovery of the dirty air filter.

 

As I didn’t have any car history I also decided to let the garage, change the timing belt because the car had done 63000 and was 6 years old and the recommendation is 72000 or 5 years old.

 

In the car documentation I found an invoice off an investigation of the check injection problem and their advice was to change the inlet manifold pressure sensor,

so I ordered one and replaced it, this didn’t cure the problem so I decided to ask the garage with the next service.

[aradam]

Part 2

 

For a while the car was running fine, a bit slow, sporadically the check injection light came on, then when carpooling to work 28/06/2010, there was power loss and suddenly a lot of smoke, so I was able to park at a petrol station my car was towed by the AA to a local garage in Northampton.

After a day I got the verdict, the engine caused too much oil pressure, which probably destroyed the turbo and the intercooler; they gave me an estimate of around £3400 damage.

 

 

I contacted the dealer and he said he would investigate and he sent me a couple of phone numbers to my mobile phone, as there was no description I phoned those numbers and the were from turbo refurbishing companies.

 

 

After this I started to panic a bit and thought that a consumer should be protected against these situation, some how, after some searching on the internet I found some articles about soga and decided to follow this road as long as I would be able to finance this

[BankFodder]

Right, we've had a chat about this case.

 

It seems that the previous owners gave an entire file of paper to the dealer which included details of the fault. Although the dealier didn't mention the fault when he sold the car, he did include the diagnostic with the bundle of documents which accompanied the car.

 

In other words Aradam did have an opportunity to know about the fault - but in fact he didn't bother to check the documents until later.

A couple of days after buying the car, the warning light started to come on. Instead of going back immediately to the dealer on the basis of the warning light, Aradam decided to keep on driving the car. He did this for 4 months. Eventually the turbo blew up because in fact the warning light was actually indicating a worn turbo seal.

had the warning light been heeded at the beginning and the turbo seal fault discovered, the fault might have been fixed for £500.

 

Although the dealer told Aradam that the car was in good condition, I would say that the fact that a warning light occurred and was maily ignored by Aradam was really the main cause of the blow-up. had he gone back to the dealer immediately and placed the responsibility with the dealer, then if the turbo had still subsequently bown up, he might have had a basis for suing the dealer. As it is, he had 4 months use and I don't think that he has a great hope of success. I'm sorry.

[aradam]

Thanks for all you help guys I am afraid he is correct, I didn't see these things because I thought it was a minor issue, I should have gone back, it sounds weird but Bankfodder made me realise this he went very thoroughly through this case at least I can except it now that it has gone this way.

The dealer still mislead me because he was aware off the faults and kept deliberately his mouth shut but I made mistakes and he gets away with it.

 

Just one question, is there anyway Is there a way to avoid paying the second half of the investigation, if he would have listened to me I wouldn't have had the court case in the end?

They didn't mention anything about that just case dismissed.

[aradam]

Sam you mailbox is full again

[sailor sam]

Sam you mailbox is full again

 

More space made. PM sent to you. My opinion is that the second judge did not appear to have considered the new evidence properley. Also, even if the car had been returned to the dealer sooner, I doubt if it would have made any difference. The dealer pretty much ignored the OP untill the court papers dropped through his letter box. The crux of the matter that the OP has evidence that the dealer knew there was a problem before he sold it. Personally, the system has not worked in this case and I would strongly advise the OP to take some face to face professional advice to see if he has an avenue to persue either by appealing (as the judge did not consider some crucial evidence), or commencing a new action.

 

Knowing that the OP is considerably out of pocket and we have a dealer thinking that he has 'got away scott free' here dosn't sit well with me.

[aradam]

I know Sam, if there are issues that I can proof and I can win I will go for ot, but it does look rather grim.

If the defendant would have inpected the car there wouldn't have been a court case, so I am wondering if I can get at least my court costs back.

[aradam]

Thanks Kimbo, just watch your back, this is the result of not having a solicitor, what proofs my point justice is a ritchmans game in this case no solicitor no win.

It sounds stupide but I can finally live normal again, without snapping at my family, and having a bit of fun instead of full time following the court case.

I took a week off and am going places with my kids I enjoy the weather.

I just did a couple of stupid things that I shouldn't have done that gave the defendant amunition against me, the fact is he still ripped me of, I have proof he bought the car via ebay with the problems present..

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Rob,

This mail is regarding our conversation on the item description of this item (320479398561). Here's the item description:

For sale is our 2004 Renault Scenic Diesel in Red with just under 63,000 miles on the clock. Lovely family car with a huge amount of space and comfortable to drive. This car is cheap to tax, insure and run giving you a very economical car. I have just bought my wife a new car so this one has to go.

 

Good points:

Over 50mpg (much more on longer runs)

Air con

Isofix child car seat fixings

Body work is in great condition, no dents/scatches etc

Large family sized car with a huge amount of boot space.

Loads of storage pockets throughout the car e.g. underfoot and underseat

Trays on the back of front seats

All rear seats can be folded or removed

Driver, passenger, side and rear curtain air bags

6 months Tax

5 months MOT

Safety mirror for looking at kids in the back seats

Body coloured bumpers

Fully adjustable steering wheel with steering wheel stereo remote control

 

 

Bad points:

Crack in the bottom of the windscreen

Drivers side window does not work, regulator needs repalcing - part on ebay costs around £30-£40

Service light error message reads 'top up oil' this was checked at our garage and the sensor needs replacing at the next service (in about 6,000miles) - part is £30

Another intermittant error message reads 'check injection' this has also been checked at our garage and the sensor on the air inlet needs replacing

Few little bits of trim are missing e.g. front tow eye cover, one air vent scroll

Not a full service history but got bits

 

I have tried to describe this car as best as possible, good and bad, I hope I haven't missed anything but you are welcome to come and view/test drive the car. To arrange call XXX on XXXXXXXXXX or XXXXXXXXXXX. This car is sold as seen.

You are bidding to buy not to view.

 

Pick up only, cash on collection or paypal accepted.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end it was not the sensor that needed replacing but over pressurisation off the turbo.

[sailor sam]

Can I just emphersize that the above ebay 'listing' was the one that the dealer responded to and not the OP. The dealer sold the car on to the OP with those faults still present it would seem.

[aradam]

The difficulty is that the defendant gave me an invoice that came with the car, showing an investigation of the check injection warning that is sort of the main issue in this case, I discovered later that the invoice wasn't paid, the advised to change the inlet pressure sensor, I changed that sensor but this didn't cure the issue, this was also the reason why I changed the glow plugs, I read on the internet that often cured this issue.

I didn't have the idea that this was a serious error later I heared from Heliosuk that this pointed to an overpressursed turbo, so that check injection was in the end catastrophic.

Although the dealer didn't tell me about this and he was fully aware about all the problems, for the law he supplied me with the information although in court he admitted to not being aware of the fact that he gave me these documents, if I start the case again he will be prepared.

I am fully aware of that all people who helped me did this to there best ability and with the best outcome in mind, but by a freak change of judges with completely different views of this case the dealer gets away with it, and BankFodder made me aware of this, he asked me for all papers from the court case and only if anybody has another approach that is completely safe I am willing to start another case, to be honest I am enjoying my life again and I am trying if it is possible for me to sort the car out so it is safe and completely drivable again.

[aradam]

I ordered an engine, and they are going to place it in the car for me, I probably sorted the whole thing for around a 1000 pounds, and I wish I would have done that right away, I am so re-leaved since that court case is recent History.

I didn't nail the dealer, but one of these days he will encounter a customer that is not as patient and friendly as me who will take revenge.

So if you see Autosource online, be warned and stay miles away from that place.

[aradam]

I got a letter from court saying the case is dismissed, do I still have to pay my half of the investigation back, nothing about this is mentioned?

[aradam]

Hi guys

What the statute of limitations is in regards appealing a county court decision?

[heliosuk]

This is rather an interesting case where the OP seems to have been shafted on the basis of evidence he uncovered and submitted as proof of his claim, where a judge, not originally privy to the case took this proof as acknowledgement that the op knew about the condition of the car prior to his purchase. It seems quite peverse that this should happen and given that English is not the OP's mother tounge, plus the fact that most if not all of the advice the OP followed was based on this site, is it not unreasonable to ask someone in the know to advise as to how long the OP has to challenge the desicion of the judge.

 

If indeed he has time then this will give the OP an opportunity to formulate a proper case with a bit of professional help that might be currently available.

 

How long in statute terms has the OP got to lodge an appeal?

[sailor sam]

I did already suggest that I believe that Adam should consider appealing. Generally an appeal should be lodged within 3 weeks although it can vary. It seems that the big thing was the fact that he had 2 seperate judges dealing with the case. clearly the second judge did not consider all the evidence. Anyway here is a link which may help. http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/court-of-appeal/civil-division/questions-and-answers.htm

[aradam]

Hi guys,

 

Before I start anything, the case made me loose confidence in the legal system and I don't want to burn myself again, maybe Bankfodder can explain clearly to you what the bottleneck is.

I have confidence in you guys but not in court.

It was quite a sensation to be told by one judge that the defendant has to be carefull because he has to proof that the car was in a correct state, then you prepair your court case based on that and then you are wiped of the table with your own defence because they turn the case 180 degrees.

In accordance to bankfodder the second judge was correct, I still don't understand why in my mind they completely ignored soga, but I am not a law expert so if anybody can make this clear to me I might be able to understand the situation better.

I borrowed money and bought a second hand engine and the car drives like a dream again, so that stress is gone.

The way I see it is that they said I had the proof in my hands by having a document that showed an investigation of the dreaded check injection error, and I ignored the error by not seeing the severity of this, this is why in the end the turbo seals gave way, and because of underlying damage there was more damage than only the turbo that would result in an expensive repair.

So if Bankfodder is prepared to give a view of why he thinks this is a lost case to start again or to fight the decision , we can crystallise from there if it will be worth to fight or start a new case, but I don't want a whack in the face again, and my funds are now extremely limited.

Some people on this forum are extremely kind and see an outcome for this situation and I have faith in a positive outcome I trust you and I believe you, and if we can make a defence without loopholes I will go for it.

Thanks guys

[sailor sam]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with Bankfodder. Yes, it could be argued that you carried on driving the car thus contributing to the fault BUT the fact remains that the 'dealer' sold the car with a few known defects, one of which points to the failure anyway and you have proof of this. In my opinion it was the second judge who didn't consider this thoroughly enough what resulted in the outcome. I'm not saying that the OP should of walked away with a full refund under the circumstances, but I do think that the he ought to have been compensated something. It's just a question on whether we all put our heads together (again) and formulate a case, or the OP consults trading standards to see what they think.

[aradam]

It's a fact that I was forced to go to court it's also a fact the defendant knew exactly what he was selling and kept it quiet, it's also a fact he lied about the next service.

he has reset the computer to lie about the service.

So there might be a possibility to get the court costs back plus the money for a rental car I used to get some items we inherited from my father in law who passed away

The repair has cost me £1322 from whitch I borrowed £1000

[sailor sam]

It's a fact that I was forced to go to court it's also a fact the defendant knew exactly what he was selling and kept it quiet, it's also a fact he lied about the next service.

he has reset the computer to lie about the service.

So there might be a possibility to get the court costs back plus the money for a rental car I used to get some items we inherited from my father in law who passed away

The repair has cost me £1322 from whitch I borrowed £1000

 

Thats another issue in my book; the fact that the 'dealer' totally ignored the problem and didn't even inspect or investigate the fault leaving little option to you. It could be argued therefore, that the dealer incurred you with the un-necessary cost of taking it to court AND dragging it out to a full hearing in addition to the cost of the independant inspection. Personally, i'm not suprised you have lost confidence in the legal system either.

[aradam]

It's just a question on whether we all put our heads together (again) and formulate a case, or the OP consults trading standards to see what they think.

 

Hi, what can trading standards do?

 

I think I need to know if the document I got with the car showing the invoice of an investigation of the check injection light is enough for the defendant to get away with the situation.

 

I think we can simplify the case.

 

I have the eBay advertising how the dealer bought the car, that shows all the things that were wrong with it.

 

We have the fact that he states he sold me a perfectly good car.

 

We can make up from the advertising that he lied to me about the service, and that he reset the computer , and that he kept quiet about the major error.

 

We know for a fact that he ignored me completely, this forced me to go to court.

 

I failed to go back to him with the sometimes appearing check injection error which resulted in a turbo failure.

 

In the independent Investigation they found more faults that couldn't be caused by the turbo failure.

 

I haven't heard back from the dealer to get his half of the money of the independent investigation back, I also don't know what court wants, the only document I received is that my claim was dismissed.

 

Is there anybody who can tell me based on these facts if there is a good to certain possibility that I can get my court costs back?

 

At the moment I can't afford any solicitor, |I paid around £500 for court £200 for a rental car.

 

My wife had to use the Taxi for shopping for the first 4 months, then I bought a car for £500 to be able to do things again and I spend £1300 to fix the car, I can just afford the diesel to go to work now.

So it might be a possibility to get my court costs back.

Therefore, if there is a Solicitor who wants to take this on on no win no fee basis he is welcome.

[aradam]

Draft Trading standards

 

Dear Madam or Sir,

 

I am in a quite predicates situation.

I bought a 2004 Renault Scenic from xxxxxxx, via an advertisement via auto trader.

The dealer sold it to me as a perfectly good car, there was a problem with the side window mechanism and there was a crack in the front window, he fixed the window mechanism and said he did not have time to fix the front window but gave me a discount for that.

A couple of days after I received the car we discovered that the high-pressure diesel pipes were covered in oil; we cleaned it and kept an eye on it.

Sometimes the check injection light came on and then went of after a couple of seconds but further than that, the car was running fine.

After 4 months when I was driving to work the car lost power and lots of smoke appeared out of the exhaust.

I managed to get the car on the side of the road, the AA started the car and it was running irregular, they asked me where to tow the car and they advised me to tow it to Nation Wide Auto-centres.

I contacted xxxxxxxxx, he said it is the turbo and he would come back to me.

I received two phone numbers via a sms message on my phone, after dialling them they appeared to be from turbo refurbishment companies

Nation wide gave me a report that the engine needed to be dismantled for further investigation and estimated the repair at £3400.

I sent xxxxxxx several emails asking how we could resolve the situation and never got any answer back.

With hiding my phone number I got him on the phone, he said he was driving but that he would call me back.

That evening he called me back very irritated, I asked him what we could do about the situation and his reply was the turbo went and that is a wear and tear item like a flat tire I am not doing anything about it.

I sent him more request and offers but he completely ignored me to solutions, I refused the car and the only option was court.

I got letters from court requesting an independent investigation, I sent an email to the dealer on his business address, he did not reply on this.

Just before the hearing I got a letter from court that they found this case suitable for mediation, I agreed with the mediation and they contacted the dealer but he refused again.

At the day of the hearing the dealer hadn’t prepared at all and the judge reprimanded him for this and told him that in accordance to soga, (she citated this from a law book) he had to proof that the car was fit for purpose.

She ordered an independent investigation based on mutual agreement and each of the party had to pay their half.

After a while the dealer cam up with a garage and asked me to sent me the key, I asked the name and phone number of the company and got the name and phone number of a person when I did an internet search I found an internet site similar as from the dealer and refused this garage.

In the end, I found a garage not far from my home that was able to do the investigation and we got a report that unfortunately showed no real cause of breakdown.

It showed some damage that could not have been caused by the turbo failure.

We were both asked to give our view of the investigation in a written report.

I found a document given to me by the car dealer of an investigation of the check engine light with the advisory to change the inlet pressure sensor, I did this when the car was a week old but it did not make a change, the check engine light kept showing up now and then.

Later I heard from a skilled technician that the check injection light pointed to an over pressurising turbo

I managed to chase the former owner and found the EBay listing of the car, where the dealer the car bought from and this showed everything that was wrong with the car so the dealer knew from the beginning that there was something wrong with the car.

I put all this information in a report and sent it to court.

I went to the second session in court we had a different judge, he had a look at the report he stated that he didn’t knew anything about cars and couldn’t make up what went wrong with the car.

He asked me if I could proof that, there was something wrong with the car when I bought it, I said I could not but that to my knowledge in accordance to Soga the dealer should proof the car was fit for purpose.

After this, the Judge dismissed my claim and left me completely devastated.

I picked myself up again and decided enough is enough and borrowed money and bought an engine and had it built in.

But surely this in no justice at all.

Therefore, the same dealer can rip of anybody he wants knowing when he keeps quiet about things that are wrong with the car he gets away with it.

My disabled wife was not able to go out for months; she missed her father’s funeral, because the dealer refused any cooperation when we requested a car for this,

I had to buy a cheap car to be able to take care of my family again; my kids missed their summer holiday, and probably this summer holiday again because I have to recuperate from the costs.

Is there anything we can do to get at least the court costs back, if the dealer wouldn’t have refused contact at all, I would probably made a deal with him and paid part of it , he basically forced my to go to court.

 

Kind regards

 

xxxxxxx

Edited May 10, 2011 by aradam

[aradam]

Hi guys it's a long time ago and in the meantime i drove thousands of miles because of a job role change, I am a very stubborn person and justice means everything to me, but my case cost a lot of money and nearly my health and my family. In the end I bailed out an got £1200 from somewhwere and bought an engine, it takes a bit to step over your proud and take your loss but my quality of life is so much better, in my situation this is the best I could have done, I got a lot of help aspecially from Heliosuk and Sailor Sam, I might be able to pick the case up again, the only regret is the dealer got away with it, it just cost him £200 that he never asked back. I don't think that the consumers are that well protected, if I read all of these stories, aspecially with a clear mind there are a lot off people in sort of the same situation, medievil2003‎ and kimbo3899‎, don't let it ruin your live, I hope you nail the B's but don't let it go too far, otherwise fix the damn car and sell it so you get some money back, it's not worth your life.