Debenhams store card 1988. G.E.Money Howard Cohen and CL Finance claim.

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

I've definitely got the pre-court colly wobbles!

 

I am challenging a debt with CL Finance because the CCA is illegible. I have raised a dispute, asked if they have the original agreement and can I have a legible copy.

 

Howard Cohen wrote to say going to court. I wrote back and said in dispute.

CL Finance then send me a statement with court costs added and today I received a county court claim document.

 

The debt is in my OH's name and she is worried that if I challenge the debt in court, I am going to a) damage my health (I have blood pressure and heart issues) or b) make things worse than accepting the debt and going for a minimal repayment through the court, or c) both. My health isn't an issue as I am up for the fight. (what's the alternative?)

 

I would be grateful if you could offer answers to our questions:

 

1) If CL Finance wins, what happens then?

2) Can we still make an affordable arrangement if we lose the case?

3) Can I represent my OH in court?

4) Can they win if they haven't got the original agreement?

 

I would still like to challenge the debt on the basis that they probably haven't got the original agreement, the copy they provided is illegible in parts, and because they are ........

 

Please, please share your experiences and knowledge as we are very worried.

 

Thanks,

[alfwithhair]

1) If CL Finance wins, what happens then? (Judgement will be awarded in favour of the creditor)

 

2) Can we still make an affordable arrangement if we lose the case? (The judge will take in to consideration your financial position and set repayments at an affordable level to your curcumstances)

 

3) Can I represent my OH in court? (Yes you can with your OH permission)

 

4) Can they win if they haven't got the original agreement? (Technically NO, but it depends on the judge on the day and what other evidence they submit to support their claim)

 

What are the POC's on the court papers?

Is it a genuine N1 from the courts?

Have you sent a CPR request to Cohen's?

Have you acknowledged the claim yet?

 

 

 

[nicklea]

3) Can I represent my OH in court? (Yes you can with your OH permission)

 

The only thing is that your OH should also be present as well. You can't just go there on your own without them.

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi Alf,

The POC reads:

The Claimants claim is for the sum of £2500 being moneys due from the Defendant to the Claimant under a regulated credit agreement made in writing under reference xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. The defendant has failed to make payment in accordance with the terms of the agreement and a default notice has been served upon the defendant pursuant to Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant claims the sum of £2500.

 

Looks like a genuine N1 document with a court number, crown stamp etc. Have had one before.

I haven't sent a CPR request yet, or acknowledge.

 

Nick, there's little chance of my wife going to court. Can she give me authorisation to act on her behalf?

 

Thanks for you replies,

[DonkeyB]

Does the £2500 match the amount on the statement they have sent you, which already includes the court fees?

 

I bet they claim them again on the N1 in addition to the principal sum.

 

Can you post a copy of the CCA? Who is the original creditor? Is it a card or loan? When was the original account opened?

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi Donkey B,

The statement amount matches the total N1 including court costs and solicitors.

 

This was a Debenhams credit card taken out in 1988. G.E.Money pursued it, then we got a notice of assignment from CL Finance in June 2008.

We have been making payments up until August this year when things got even tighter, and I discovered CAG.

 

Here are the CCA and Terms.

 

Debs CC agreement.pdf

 

I find it illegible, so I am challenging it on that basis.

 

What do you think?

 

Cheers,

[DonkeyB]

To be honest, I can read most of it. I’s surprisingly good for 1988.

[Rocky Roadster]

I can't read all of the agreement, is it just me? The scan reads better than the paper document.

 

Should I defend, or give in and go for a low repayment as I am not earning?

 

Cheers,

[mines a pint]

In the same position as you, although not received their claim form YET.

 

Your agreement is quite good compared to mine which is from 1989, exactly the same 'wavey line' T&C's.

 

Did GE serve a default notice ?

[DonkeyB]

Exactly the same T&Cs? That’s useful – makes it likely they’re not a copy of the originals, for certain.

[PGH7447]

subbing

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

Howard Cohen have now sent another copy of the CCA and Terms & conditions and a letter saying "We therefore advise you to file a reply to the county court claim form as you deem fit.". Well that's good advice isn't it.

 

I have just checked the CCA and T&Cs again on both copies sent to me, and on the signed page it refers to clause 5 (b) of the terms and conditions and guess what - there isn't a 5 (b) in the T&Cs they sent me and section 5 refers to something entirely different!

 

Also the company signature is not dated. Is this relevant?

 

Cheers,

Rocky

[Rocky Roadster]

duplicated

Edited November 29, 2010 by Rocky Roadster

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi Mines a pint,

Sorry, I missed your question.

 

GE Money did send a default notice. It was dated 23/02/08 (Saturday) and gave us until 08/03/08 (Saturday) to pay the arrears.

Does this comply with the requirements? As it was then sold to CL Finance is it any use to my case?

Did you cross check your CCA and T&Cs for the missing section 5 (b)? I think that the two documents sent to me do not match.

 

Cheers,

[consumeredge]

I'm reading Rocky's OH received a notice of assignment from CL Finanace June 2008, regular payments have been made to CL Finance up until August 2010, Cohen's have jumped in and in probility have stated or will state email/post "irregular payments" for September/October as cause for issuing the summons - if this is the case IMO the POC are false.

 

The Default Notice served pursuant S87 bla bla was from the original creditor, what was the date and outstanding balance on the account when the original DN was served? and then what was the outstanding balance as at August 2010?

 

Could you afford to resume payments at the pre September rate? if not, can you afford to offer anything?

 

Had an identical case with messors CL/cohen last year, person concerned made 2 reduced payments through unexpected hardship, prior notice had been sent to all creditors, cl finance demanded full payment, cohen issued claim - forwarded a reduced offer of payment December with I/E and paid it, cohen chanced it till 9 days before the hearing, threathened her the reduced payments from December would be used against her in court, when told to BRING IT ON they served NOD next day

 

Rocky has a payment history which can work against CL Finance if he notified them, cohens POC have omitted the history of paymenrts since June 2008 implying the account was assigned and that Rocky's OH hasn't paid a penny since the OC Default Notice was issued

 

Did GE Money serve a termination notice?

 

Stand by for one of cohens legendry "By consent" orders

Edited November 30, 2010 by consumeredge
Date error

[consumeredge]

RR

 

Is this thread a retitled continuation of Howard Cohen pending legal action - is this CCA enforceable, or have you and your OH received 2 letters dated 04/11/2010 from Howard Cohen?

[Rocky Roadster]

The signed agreement reads "APR for cash takes into account the handling charge as referred to in clause 5 (b) of the terms of agreement. The terms of agreement does not have a 5 (b) and clause 5 only talks about loss of cards. There is no reference on the terms supplied to cash handling charge. I think they are just terms they had handy as they have a different company address on to the signed document.

 

Is this therefore wrongly executed or unenforceable because they haven't supplied the correct terms?

 

I would be very grateful for all responses as I need to file defence by Friday.

[steven4064]

I had a look at the agreement posted in post #6. It has all the prescribed terms (under "details of the account") and a signature. It is therefore properly executed and therefore enforceable.

 

Are there any late payment charges? If so, you should counterclaim for them, the interest levied on them and imterest on both either s69 interest or compound interest at their APR in restitution. You will find that interest from 1988 tots up quite nicely.

 

Have a look at my Goldfish thread.

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for your reply.

 

I had a look at the agreement posted in post #6. It has all the prescribed terms (under "details of the account") and a signature. It is therefore properly executed and therefore enforceable.

 

Doesn't the reference under details of the account to the non-existent clause 5 (b) in the terms of agreement mean that the account details are wrong?

 

Will check for late payment charges, thanks.

[steven4064]

Doesn't the reference under details of the account to the non-existent clause 5 (b) in the terms of agreement mean that the account details are wrong?

Possibly, but not enough to make the agreement unenforceable.

[Rocky Roadster]

Sorry to be a pain but I am pretty sure that they do not have the original documents. What are the chances of it actually going to court do you think?

Thanks,

[Rocky Roadster]

Sorry to be a pain but I am pretty sure that they do not have the original documents. What are the chances of it actually going to court do you think?

Thanks,

[ncf355]

The DN is invalid

 

the change to 14 days notice took place October 2006, so this DN is well inside those requirements

 

The dates from 23/02 to 08/03/08 do not allow 14 CLEAR days (that is, the day after you received it to the day prior to the day on which they will take action)

 

Actual date should be 11/02/08 for action, and thats if you are being very generous with post times (via the legal interpretation of 1st class post - 2 working days it would be 13/02/08)

 

The issue regards the term 5 is also very relevant, this would of course show up their paperwork as inaccurate (at best!)

 

I also note their reference to assignment - you should be asking for a copy of the notice of assignment to show that they have full legal assignment that would allow legal action, without it they cannot bring a claim (and even with it, the DN stops them)

 

 

Dont know what others make of this, but I'd be inclined to apply for a strike out (particularly if you have the original DN that was sent to you?)

[ncf355]

Assignment via law of property act 1925 info

 

HERE

 

AND HERE

 

 

 

As said above, get a few comments on my statements above before you act, just so there is a general consensus of opinion in the best way to act

[steven4064]

The DN is invalid

 

the change to 14 days notice took place October 2006, so this DN is well inside those requirements

A recent court of appeal judgement has ruled that it is 14 days from the date of posting. So the DN is not invalid. Sorry. (2008 was a leap year).

 

I keep pointing out that recent judgements mean that you are extrmeley unlikely to succeed if all you have is technical breaches of the CCA 1974 and associated regulations.

 

The court will ask "did you borrow the money" and will find for the claimant if the answer is "yes" whatever the breaches (almost) of the CCA 1974.