2005 NR SPO - payments missed now Bailiffs Possession warrant - **WON NEW SPO**

[Lea_HTH]

Include all the copies of letters with your court application. They do not need your signature to comply with a SAR notice and I cannot doubt that they are fully aware they do not need it, so are clearly flaunting the law by consistently asking for it.

 

You will detail the costs for the filing of the form. You are extremely unlikely to get any other form of costs arising out of this at this stage.

 

You will need three complete copies of everything you submit to the court, and unless you pay the fee to the court for issuing the papers to the defendant, you will be responsible for this yourself. I suggest you look up Part 8 in the Civil Procedure Rules. You are not exempt from knowing how the court works simply because you are not a lawyer, so ensure you follow the procedures precisely for your particular claim.

[MrZ]

 

Thanks again. I will definitely review the part 8 in the rules. I have every hope that once they see I have filed that they will not defend and admit they are in breach. My letters are extremely clear and any person reviewing the chain of correspondence will see that I have gone above and beyond in my offers to satisfy their request for my identity. Hopefully a judge will see it too.

 

Wish me luck!

[Lea_HTH]

Good luck!

 

I am sure with what you have written here that they will comply as soon as they get the court papers - but make sure you proceed to the hearing so that you can reclaim the costs of issuing. You should not have to bear the cost of chasing them up when you already paid the 10 pound fee...though did they cash that?

[MrZ]

Did they cash it? No, they just keep refusing to "action" my request and return the fee. I believe they are trying to claim that my 40 days hasnt started as i have yet to submit a valid request. However that would be for the judge to determine at a hearing. On every one of my replies I have reiterated that the 40 days is from the time I made the request and their stalling does not grant an extension.

 

I am comfortable with regard to the particulars of my claim and how to lay them out, but I am still unsure how to include my request for costs. Ideally list my cost separately in my claim:

1. the court fee

2. the cost to make copies and to serve them,

3. my cost in postage and letter writing in chasing them up.

 

Should these be listed as part of the POC? If yes should it just be one lump amount? If no, how should it be formatted?

 

I dont want to ask the world, but could you point me to where I can find an example as to how this should be formatted and included in the claim form?

 

Thanks again!

[Lea_HTH]

Bullet or numbered points are best, for clarity. Most litigants in person hand write these forms, so don't worry too much about formatting - you just need to ensure you include all the information you are relying on (letters etc) and make sure it is clear to read and understand.

 

You can set the costs out as you have described - there is no prescribed format. I would point out, again, that you are unlikely to get more than the cost for filing. Your costs for letter writing etc are unlikely to be given to you.

[Suetonius]

The short answer is no it is not regulated by the CCA.

 

However, the fairness test is applicable to your unregulated mortgage contract.

[MrZ]

Ok. I want to be careful not to count my chickens whilst holding only eggs but.....

 

I filed my application for a performance order on the 12 April 2011. Today, 14 April I received a phone call from their legal department. After another security check over the phone, they have stated they intend to fully comply with my SAR within the week.

 

Of course I asked for, and have not yet received this in writing, but as for now, I will call it a success. I will keep the court date, if only to ask for costs.

 

Thanks again to everyone who responded to this thread!

[MrZ]

My mortgage company seem to agree with you. They did comply with the SAR ....sort of. I asked for copies of transcripts of conversations, and all sorts of other information. What they sent are simply copies of letters that have been sent over a period of time. The information only goes back to 2002, even though the account was opened in 2000. There was nothing regarding the agreement, its terms and conditions or statements covering the entire period. They did send copies of "mini statements", but these only show opening and closing balances, not every debit or credit.

 

I expected they might send only partial information so I also sent them a letter and requested the agreement and statements under the CCA. Even though the agreement states at the top that it is an agreement regulated by the CCA 1994, they have replied saying that they are exempt under section 16 of the act. So I am back to square one. There is some specific information I am after and they just wont budge. I have been trying to get this information since November last year. What I want specifically are ALL my statements from the start of the account. I want to see what they have been charging me over the life of the loan. In the mini statements I have identified a few arrears charges, admin charges, legal charges etc.

 

Back in November 2010, they enforced a suspended possession order from 5 year previous (2005). It is my contention that they acted prematurely, without notice, despite arrears payments being made under an agreed payment plan, etc. The judge was inclined to agree and queried the local solicitor/agent representing the bank why these things hadnt been done. The agent gave some rubbish response. In the end the judge suspended the order and said I should continue paying what I had been paying, what I had proposed prior to court and the bank declined. He made the total amount of the order to be that which was detailed in the banks application for possession. I have been disputing this amount since the beginning, but because I have nothing to prove my position, I am stuck with this order.

 

I want to apply to have the order set aside so that they no longer hold the order over my head with threats of possession. Also I want to pay toward the arrears what I originally agreed prior to them getting an order for possession. Essentially because they got a warrant for possession, I was forced to increase the amount I was paying additionally each month. I only did this because even though I had an agreement in place, they said it wasnt enough. They wouldnt stop possession without a lump sum payment. So without the lump sum to offer them I offered to increase the amount I was paying each month. Which by they way they never accepted. It was only at the hearing that the judge said what I had offered was ok. It has been a struggle to pay this extra amount, and they are just waiting for the first missed payment or reduced payment to pounce and try to possess again.

 

As I see it, I have a couple of issues.

 

1. How do I get them to give me the information I am after.

2. What is the best way to get the suspended order set aside?

3. How can I get them to release the information missing from the SAR? (BTW there was absolutely nothing pertaining to the possession oder in the SAR. The only thing relating was a hand written note on a letter I sent to them with the date that the order was applied for.) I want to see what they have on me relating to the possession. Is this exempt from a SAR?

 

With regard to my CCA request, they are claiming to be exempt under section 16. I have read the section and I am not sure which part they are claiming grants them exception. Also since my original post, I have located some mre paperwork. I have the first page of the original agreement that says it is regulated by the CCA 1974. Now they are saying they are exempt. I dont know which applies in fact. Beside that issue, is there any provision under the FSAMA or regulation of the FSA whereby I can request a full statement of debits and credits? I really need these in order to see what the actual balance and charge are to date.

Edited April 18, 2011 by MrZ
Spellcheck

[MrZ]

After applying for a court order, they finally did comply with the SAR ....sort of. I asked for copies of transcripts of conversations, and all sorts of other information. What they sent are simply copies of letters that have been sent over a period of time. The information only goes back to 2002, even though the account was opened in 2000. There was nothing regarding the agreement, its terms and conditions or statements covering the entire period. They did send copies of "mini statements", but these only show opening and closing balances, not every debit or credit.

 

I expected they might send only partial information so I also sent them a letter and requested the agreement and statements under the CCA. Even though the agrrement states at the top thet it is an agreement regulated by the CCA 1994, they have replied saying that they are exempt under section 16 of the act. So I am back to square one. There is some specific information I am after and they just wont budge. I have been trying to get this information since November last year. What I want specifically are ALL my statements from the start of the account. I want to see what they have been charging me over the life of the loan. In the mini statements I have identified a few arrears charges, admin charges, legal charges etc.

 

I want to apply to have the order set aside so that they no longer hold the order over my head with threats of possession. Also I want to pay toward the arrears what I originally agreed prior to them getting an order for possession.

 

Essentially because they got a warrant for possession, I was forced to increase the amount I was paying additionally each month toward the arrears. I only did this because even though I had an agreement in place, they said it wasnt enough. They wouldnt stop possession without a lump sum payment. So without the lump sum to offer them I offered to increase the amount I was paying each month. Which by they way they never accepted. It was only at the hearing that the judge said what I had offered was ok. It has been a struggle to pay this extra amount, and they are just waiting for the first missed payment or reduced payment to pounce and try to posess again.

 

As I see it, I have a couple of issues.

 

1. How do I get them to give me the information I am after.

2. What is the best way to get the suspended order set aside?

3. How can I get them to release the information missing from the SAR? (BTW there was absolutley nothing pertaining to the possession oder in the SAR. The only thing relating was a hand written note on a letter I sent to them with the date that the order was applied for.) I want to see what they have on me relating to the possession. Is this exempt from a SAR?

 

Should I apply for a set aside? Would they be able to have it re-instated if it were set aside?

Should I ask for a redetermination?

Should I issue a claim against them for damages and distress? I have been to my doctor on a couple of occassions due to stress so I would rely on this as to my distress.

 

My main goal is to get rid if this suspended order that they have held onto for 6 years now. Secondly I want to pay off the arrears monthly with an amount that doesnt leave me robbing Peter to pay Paul. I want to send them the message that I wont be bullied anymore!

[MrZ]

Does anyone have any ideas about what I can do now?

[nicklea]

I would suggest, as the Mould says above, that a lot will depend on what you actually asked for and how you worded your request. Did you specifically ask for a list of the default charges that have been applied to the account?

 

After applying for a court order, they finally did comply with the SAR ....sort of. I asked for copies of transcripts of conversations, and all sorts of other information.

 

They can only supply you with information that they actually hold. If they don't hold records of telephone conversations with you then they cannot supply them.

 

I expected they might send only partial information so I also sent them a letter and requested the agreement and statements under the CCA. Even though the agrrement states at the top thet it is an agreement regulated by the CCA 1994, they have replied saying that they are exempt under section 16 of the act.

Section 16 would only apply to Building Societies in your case. I believe that Northern Rock converted to a bank back in the 1990s so would not be covered by this.

 

 

So I am back to square one. There is some specific information I am after and they just wont budge. I have been trying to get this information since November last year. What I want specifically are ALL my statements from the start of the account. I want to see what they have been charging me over the life of the loan. In the mini statements I have identified a few arrears charges, admin charges, legal charges etc.

As I said above, did you specifically request information about the charges?

 

As I see it, I have a couple of issues.

 

1. How do I get them to give me the information I am after.

2. What is the best way to get the suspended order set aside?

3. How can I get them to release the information missing from the SAR? (BTW there was absolutley nothing pertaining to the possession oder in the SAR. The only thing relating was a hand written note on a letter I sent to them with the date that the order was applied for.) I want to see what they have on me relating to the possession. Is this exempt from a SAR?

It's difficult to give any suggestions without knowing how you worded your original request. I would suggest that you need to be as specific as possible when requesting information.

[MrZ]

I would suggest, as the Mould says above, that a lot will depend on what you actually asked for and how you worded your request. Did you specifically ask for a list of the default charges that have been applied to the account?

 

This is a portion of my SAR:

 

"Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my history with your organization, to include loans, payment protection insurance and other products. Alternatively a complete set of statements for the accounts or associated accounts is acceptable."

 

They can only supply you with information that they actually hold. If they don't hold records of telephone conversations with you then they cannot supply them.

 

They often refer to details of previous conversations, so I'm sure they hold the information

 

Section 16 would only apply to Building Societies in your case. I believe that Northern Rock converted to a bank back in the 1990s so would not be covered by this.

 

As I said above, did you specifically request information about the charges?

 

It's difficult to give any suggestions without knowing how you worded your original request. I would suggest that you need to be as specific as possible when requesting information.

 

I have no idea why they feel they are exempt. I read the section and cant see how it applies to them, unless because they have been taken over by the govt?

The front page of the agreement says it is regulated by the CCA 1974. The FSA have been of no help. They say that they regulate how lenders deal with customers in arrears, but have no means to enforce it and that any complaints should be made to the FOS. I have no faith in the FOS. They then said I should consult a solicitor with expertise in contract law.

 

I thought about writing another letter requesting the missing info from the SAR, but given what I had to go through just to get anything I dont see them being very agreeable.

 

SAR aside, I would like to know who regulates my agreement.

Edited April 19, 2011 by MrZ
Spellcheck

[Suetonius]

The FSMA only applies to new first charge mortgages after 31 October 2004.

 

Your mortgage as I understand it was for £56,000 and you applied for it in 2000. The reason that your agreement is not regulated by the CCA is because of the date of the agreement and the amount you borrowed.

 

Before the implementation of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 and its amendments to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, credit agreement in excess of £25,000 were exempt from regulation. However, following the implementation of the Consumer Credit Act 2006, this financial limit was removed (except in limited circumstances)

 

The lifting of the financial limit only applies to new agreements made on or after 6 April 2008. This means that existing agreements over £25,000 will remain unregulated unless altered.

 

The transitional arrangement provides that previously unregulated agreements (by virtue of the £25,000 financial limit) will remain unregulated where the variation either does not involve the provision of further credit (in the form of a cash loan), or is itself an exempt agreement.

 

However, having said the above the balance of your mortgage is significantly higher than it was originally. Have you increased the amount borrowed after 31 October 2004 ?

[MrZ]

Hi Suetonius,

 

Thank you for this information. The original loan has not been changed since I took it out. I did however in 2002 take a small secured loan as a second charge from the same bank. It is my understanding that the second loan was completely separate. As far as the balance due now, All I can say is it must be charges and interest. This is another reason I want the statements from the start of the account. Not sure if its important or not, but it is currently an interest only loan. I'll admit I havent been a very good steward with regard to the administration side of this mortgage, and my memory isnt helping the matter. I had always paid my monthly on time and was satisfied that was all I needed to do. Its only been of recent that I am getting a good handle on all of my finances.

 

Can you comment on th fact that the agreement states it is regulated by the CCA 1974, and that arrears notices state "that part of the loan may be regulated by the CCA 1974"?

 

Bottom line is, I asked for statements and and arrears break downs. They didnt respond. I guess this was because I was facing repossession and they didnt want to be helpful, or they felt I had no chance in front of a judge. Now that the order has been suspended, I have continued to ask for them. The SAR was delayed and stalled, and then only partially complied with, the CCA request was refused claiming exemption.

 

Am I going about this the wrong way? Is they a guaranteed way to ask for this information where the lender HAS to comply? Why doesnt NRAM want to give me what I am asking for? If I can show that the arrears figure that they used to start possession is incorrect, perhaps I can get the order set aside. As it stands, they are in a position to issue monthly threats of possession if I miss a payment. I am doing my best to make every payment on time, but because things are so tight I havent much "breathing space". For example, I get paid at the end of the month. In Feb, because its a short month, I completely forgot to make a payment by the 28th. The very next day (Mar 1st) when I realised, I made the payment. But instead of them understanding the honest mistake, they sent letters saying I breached the court order and at risk of possession. Does this sound like fair and reasonable treatment from a lender dealing with a customer in arrears?

[Suetonius]

Hello Mrz

 

Have you spoken with the ICO ? Might be worthwhile giving them a quick call and see what they have to say.

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/

 

Helpline

 

Call us on 0303 123 1113. Our helpline is open from 9am to 5pm, Monday to Friday.

If you would prefer not to call an ‘03’ number, call us on 01625 545745.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Suetonius

[MrZ]

I spoke to the ICO regarding the SAR, they said they cant "make" a firm comply. They can only assess whether a firm has acted reasonably. That assessment can then be used in court action.

 

I spoke to the FSA regarding who regulates the loan and whether or not the CCA 1974 applies based on it being written on the actual agreement and referrred to in correspondence. They said they didnt know the answer and I should contact a contract law solicitor. I have phoned several solicitors but none of them will say yes or no until I pay for an initital consult and allow them to inspect all of the contract. I dont have all of the contract/agreement which is why I am asking them to provide it along with the statements. Even if I did have all of the contract, I wouldnt have the money to pay for a consult that may or may not answer my question.

[Suetonius]

I would save your money, you don't need a contract law solicitor. The answer can be found via google.

 

Of course none of this helps with your problem in obtaining details of your transactions.... You could make an official complaint to the ICO and once the ICO write to them requesting information relating to your complaint, it may give them a kick up the backside and a wake up call to send you the information you have requested

[MrZ]

I've emailed a follow-up complaint to the ICO. Lets see what they have to say if anything. I have tried several google searches but havent found an answer yet. I find it very difficult to believe that I would be the only person with this type of situation. Surely there should be a remedy for consumers who want to request the information from their mortgage lender. The CCA 1974 is very clear about the right of the consumer to have this info, and very severe consequences for lenders who do not comply. This is a big loop hole for mortgages apparently.

 

The FSA gives guidance about notifications that must be sent when a customer is in arrears, but this is very limited. I have yet to find any other regulation that gives the consumer the same right to access other than the CCA 1974.

 

If my complaints do no good I may have to save up money over time to ask a solicitor. Aside from requesting the statements and agreement, it would be nice to know if I have any other protections under the Act.

[MrZ]

After reviewing previous correspondence from NRAM, I have a letter, a generic arrears notice, dated December 2010 that states

 

"Part of your loan (mortgage loan) may be regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and we are obliged to give notice to you under the provision of the Act"

 

What I have discovered is they are combining 2 loans I have with them into one account. My first charge mortgage taken in 2000, and then a second secured loan in 2002. Their claiming to be exempt under s16 of the Act so are not obliged to send the statements. At the same time the second loan (under the same account number and part of the same payment) is admittedly regulated. This is why they are required to send notices under the act.

Doesn't the MCOB handbook also require an arrears notice, but with more detail, e.g. payments missed etc? Why would they send the (generic) notice under the 1974 rather than the MCOB guidlines? If I make one payment each month, and that payment is applied to both loans which are referenced under the same account number, does this mean that the CCA 1974 and the MCOB apply to BOTH loans? I guess what I am asking is how can they pick and choose which reg they are going to follow? Does tying the loans together make one or the other regulated differently? I get mini statements that combines everything together, all charges and credits are grouped together. On my regular statements sent yearly the two loans are borken down showing the amount paid from the monthly premium to each loan. Each loan has the same interest rate etc.

[MrZ]

I really hope someone can help me. I have had enough with NRAM!!

 

For the sake of those who havent read the entire thread and related thread I will give a brief outline.

 

1. May 2005 The lender obtains a suspended possesion order for arrears.

 

2. Shortly thereafter I cleared the arrears. I was unaware at that time that I could then apply to have the order stricken out.

 

3. Following the credit crisis, I like many other experienced financial difficulties and accrued arrears. The arrears started near the end of 2009 and beginning 2010.

 

4. In July 2010 I began making informal additonal payment toward the arrears in addition to my regular payment.

 

5. In August 2010 into a repayment plan with the lender. The plan required a double payment commencing September 2010, and then a regular payment with the additional payment toward the arrears I was already making each month thereafter.

 

6. I was unable to pull the money together for the double payment in the first month. I informed the lender of this and asked if I could make the regular payment and continue to make additonal payments toward the arrears as per the agreement, and as I had been doing. They said this was ok. This was approved on the phone. I never received any written confirmation. I trusted the lender that all was ok as verbally agreed.

 

7. Payments were always made at the end of the month on payday.

 

8. In October 2010 the day before payday, and with no advance notice I received a letter from the lender that they had that day applied for a baliffs warrant for possession...using the suspended order from 5 years prior!!! The same day I received a letter from their solicitors stating they had applied to the court for the warrant.

 

9. In November 2010 I discoverd CAG!!! I made a SAR to the lender, and I made numerous offers by phone, fax and recorded delivery for repayment. The lender refused demaning the full arrears amount, which was in the region of £6,00.00. I disputed this amount and asked for a breakdown of the figure as I suspected it included charges and fees and not just missed payments. According to my records the amount was roughly £1000.00 more than it should be. My requested for a breakdown was done by phone, fax and recorded delivery.

 

10. Following the advice of helpful CAGers I applied to have the warrant set aside. I completed a budget sheet for the lender and the court and continued to make offers of repayment, each time increasing the amount offered monthly, even though I knew it would be difficult to maintain. I did this in desparation to appease the lender and stop the possesion.

 

11. At the hearing the Judge found the Judge question why the lender was acting on a 5 year old suspended order, but also stated that it was within the lenders right to do so. The Judge also enquired as to why the lender had not accepted my reasonable offers. The local agent did not have an answer. My dispute about the arrears amount was put forward. Without any further eveidence to confirm the arrears amount, the Judge accepted the amount being claimed by the lender and made the order for that amount to be paid. He also instructed lender to provide a breakdown to me after proceedings. This instruction was made in the hearing, but was not reflected in the order itself. The final order was for the amount claimed by the lender paid monthly at the amount of my final offer, which was a stretch for me to maintain.

 

12. December 2010. No breakdown received but an arrears letter with yet a different arrears amount. No response to my SAR

 

13. January 2011 I chase the SAR with the lender. Later that month I received a letter dated weeks earlier that my signature was required before thy would action my SAR.

 

14. Letter volleys back and forth between the lender and myself regarding the requirement for a signature.

 

15. February 2011, a short month with only 28 days. I was absent minded and neglected to make the payment within the month.

 

16. March 1st I realised the mistake and made payment. This was followed by threats that I had breached the court order and possession proceedings were to follow. The threats were on the phone when I was making the missed (1 day) payment.

 

17. March 2011 LBA sent regarding non compliance of the SAR, still no breakdown of the arrears. Complaint lodged with the ICO.

 

18. April 2011 application for a performance order made to order the lender to comply. 2 Days later a phone call from the lender that they would comply within 3 days. Application for the order withdrawn.

 

19. Incomplete SAR received. Letter stating what was missing (statements and agreement) and a further 7 days to comply.

 

20. Mid April CCA sent. Reply received stating they were exempt per section 16 of the CCA 1974.

 

21. Legal fees added to the mortgage. This they say was for their cost of obtaing the warrant, and then instructing an agent to appear at the set aside hearing. This legal fees were not part of the final order.

 

Currently the 12+2 have expired. I am 99.9% that at least part of my mortgage is regulated by the CCA 1974. This is because the mortgage account consists of 2 loans, the original mortgage taken in 2000, and an additional secured loan taken in 2002. Both loans are paid each month in one payment. All correspondence and account number etc are for both loans combined.

 

I have since the hearing had a change in income resulting in £200.00 less per month. This makes the already difficult monthly payment even more difficult.

 

I spoke to the lender and mentioned this, and was told I had to comply with the order and if a payment is missed they will possess.

 

I still have no statements and no breakdown of the arrears. The MCOB states that the lender is supposed to provide arrears statements that detail the amount, and which payments were missed. They do no provide this. Instead they provide a generic arrears statement that they say they are required to provided under the 1974 CCA. Funny that considering they claim to be exempt when responding to my CCA request.

 

What do I want?

 

I want to have this supsended order set aside, stricken out, or ortherwise made ineffective. Aside from a re-determination hearing that will reduce my payment amount, but keep the suspended order in place, what can I do?

 

Sorry for the long post but I felt in necessary to give the full detail in order to get the best advice possible. I am really trying to get a handle on my debts and finances and NRAM arent making things easy.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited May 3, 2011 by MrZ
Spellcheck

[MrZ]

Post 23 anyone?

[MrZ]

So when NRAM decided to try to repossess my home over the xmas holidays a few years ago, I found CAG and started fighting back.

 

In a nutshell this is what my fighting has revealed.

 

NRAM have ZERO agreements for any of my 4 loans with them.

 

1-Mortgage

3 other loans; both secured and unsecured.

 

They have agreements for none of them. I am current in my payments with no arrears. Any ideas on my options now?

 

Oh yes, last year got a letter saying my account was likely due redress. Got a second letter stating that the investigation is taking longer than expected (I reckon that's because there are no agreements), and that they would be in touch with updates.

 

I want to take them on. I know the options for the CCA regulated loans where no agreement exists, but the mortgage and at least one other loan isn't regulated...not sure what the options are for those.

[MrZ]

So based on all the information I have available to me, I decided to make a compliant and placed the account in dispute.

 

I received the typical " we endeavour to respond in full within 8 weeks....blah blah blah".

 

I intend to with hold my payments starting this month, and instead put the mortgage payment into a reserve account. I expect I will get the typical letter stating that I am obliged to pay, will incur arrears charges, and threats of repossession.

 

I of course will respond to any letters as appropriate, but hope that they initiate possession proceedings so that I can use my recently discovered information as part of defence.

 

The goal? Simply to get the Court's declaration on the case.

 

I will update this thread as things develop.

[applecart]

Hi Mr Z

 

Have you contacted Land Registry for an official copy of the Deed in relation to the mortgage account yet?

 

Apple

[MrZ]

Hi Mr Z

 

Have you contacted Land Registry for an official copy of the Deed in relation to the mortgage account yet?

 

Apple

 

Yes, some time ago I obtained copies of the info from the Land Registry.