Notice of Intention to Prosecute. Cant Sleep

[Wriggler7]

Good old Old Codja! Just one suggestion: The letter from the railway will have a reference number on it. Don't forget to put that reference number at the top of the letter. My 'local line' which is a comparatively small business, have already written to over 3,000 people in 2010, and if you simply sign your letter 'A Smith' or 'J Jones', it may be that your expertly drafted letter will never get attached to the case file. (I am told that the most common first name written to is Aaron, and, predictably, the most common surname is Smith, it has been suggested that the death of Elvis Aaron Presley is responsible for the first.)

[fren]

Paul, don't panic. Whilst you have certainly f*cked up, and they are legally within their rights to take you to the Magistrate Court, there are ways around this. Have a read through the threads on here, have a look at the thread I made on the first page. From what I can tell from your post, I did something far more stupid than you and managed to settle out of court for 35 quid though I'm under no illusion that I got extremely lucky when it came to that particular figure.

 

Point is, it won't necessarily go to court. I'm also happy to pm you a copy of the letter that I sent to Southern after I got the Notice of Intention to prosecute letter - it was the same as yours.

 

Try and relax, things aren't as bad as they may seem.

 

Hi silly11,

 

Sorry to bother you randomly. Would it be possible for you to also send me a copy? We have just received the first letter from TFL yesterday and need to draft a reply. I hope to get some tips from a successful example:razz:

 

Thank you very much, I would be forever grateful!!

 

(i tried to pm you first, but it wouldn't let me as I have under 5 posts on this forum:sad:)

[Mistralee]

Hello,

 

I'd be grateful for any advice that you could all offer me. I have just received exactly the same letter, but in my case I'd swiped my card twice at the same station, the first time when I left the underground, and the second time when I got a connecting train with first capital connect to go one stop. But problems arose when I was stopped by a RPI before reaching my destination, and it turned out that my second swipe hadn't been recorded by the machine. My entire journey had been paid for up until then. Although, I've asked them to check their CCTV cameras to verify my story, I've been told that they are not required to do so. I also regret that the first letter I sent back to the prosecution department by return of post, although detailing all the facts, clearly expressed my grievance at the arbitrary harrassment I underwent at the hands of this RPI. I have now written a second letter, apologising for the emotion in the first and offering to pay for the fare and costs as you recommended above.

 

This is the first time that such a thing has happened to me, and there was more than enough credit on my card at the time to cover the rest of my journey.

 

Could you please let me know if this was the right thing to do or make other suggestions?

 

I'd be grateful for any and all advice!

[stifle]

To be honest if you are absolutely sure you touched in correctly (i.e. you did not get an error on your second touch) you should stick to your guns. Print off your journey history from the Oyster website which verifies that you touched in and send them a copy.

 

If you got a "seek assistance" when you attempted to touch back in, then that is of course what you should have done, and offering settlement would be appropriate.

 

I am somewhat surprised that this went to a prosecution though; a penalty fare would seem to have been the appropriate resolution.

[Mistralee]

Hi Stifle,

 

Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid that I didn't realize there was a problem the second time that I swiped the card until the RPI stopped me. I heard it beep and assumed it was fine. Do all Oyster readers have the small screen telling you your credit or to seek assistance etc? As I'm not sure that this one had one. Would it be possible to insist that they check the CCTV which would verify that I had swiped the card? Should I still settle if I had no intention of travelling without a valid ticket and it was their machine that had malfunctioned as it didn't record my second swipe?

[stifle]

Yes, all the machines have the little screen. If there is a problem with the card it will display "SEEK ASSISTANCE" and you will hear two beeps, of a lower pitch to the normal one beep when the card has been accepted. You could attempt to get the CCTV images (under the Data Protection Act if needed) but they may have been wiped by now if this was a while back. If you do manage to secure them this would be quite strong evidence to defeat a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution (which requires intent to avoid payment) but less likely to get you out of a Railway Bylaw 18 prosecution (failure to show a ticket).

 

Just to clarify things in my own head, did you try to touch out and back in on exactly the same reader, or did you use ticket gates?

[Mistralee]

Hello,

 

Could you please tell me what kind of fine Railway Bylaw 18 prosecution would entail and if it would also mean being given a criminal record? It seems really unjust that they can still charge you with this when there was no intent to travel illegally.

 

The incident happened at Finsbury Park, I was leaving the Victoria line to change to the train and it being my first time thought that I would need to swipe in once when leaving the underground, then a second time before boarding the train to travel one stop. I've since been told that I needn't have swiped at all there. I used two different Oyster readers, one near the exit to the underground and another by the stairs leading up to the platforms. There weren't any ticket gates. The rest of my journey from Victoria had been paid for. Under these circumstances, do you think that the RPI could have been a bit more understanding? It was just one stop and obviously a mistake as I had paid a lot more for travelling from elsewhere in the country that day. I thought that I'd just heard a beep as usual. Do you think that I have any kind of case?

 

Thanks again Stifle!

[Mistralee]

Just thought I'd add that I'd overshot my station as I'd gotten on the wrong train which didn't stop there and was not trying to exit the station where the rpi stopped me, and was instead looking for the right platform to go back. Does this make any difference?

[Old-CodJA]

If you are charged with a breach of Byelaw 18, this is what is known as a 'strict liability' matter. It is not concerned with intent, but in effect it's a direct instruction that might be interpreted as 'the rule says you have to and therefore you must'.

 

The most common charge is a 'fail to show a valid ticket' contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.2 (2005). In these cases the Summons is put before a Magistrates Court, but any conviction is non-recordable. If convicted it is punishable by way of a fine of up to £1000 (Level 3), but in practice, for a first offence the entry level is around £175 on Band 'A' in the Magistrates guidelines and that may be further reduced by credit given to anyone who enters a guilty plea at an early stage. They may also order anyone who is convicted to pay all, or a part of the prosecution costs and to pay any unpaid fare, plus a Victim Surcharge of a further £15 levied against anyone who is fined by the Court.

 

Before trying to answer your last query, I'd also like a point of clarification please.

 

Which station were you intending to travel to from Finsbury Park and to which station had you been overcarried?

 

.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Mistralee]

I needed to get to Harringay, but ended up in Alexandra Palace as I'd mistakenly gotten on the fast train which didn't stop at Harringay. He intercepted me on the bridge between platforms. Is there any particular area they need to stick to or can they go anywhere? I noticed the rest of the RPIs were near the exit, but he probably wanted to make a pre-emptive strike.

 

Also, if a conviction for National Railways Byelaw 18.2 is non-recordable does that I mean I do not get a criminal record? And how much would the fine for this be?

[Mistralee]

I have just read something about penalty fare locations, and wonder if the penalty was illegal because I travelled from Victoria via the underground? The journey was paid from Victoria to Finsbury Park, but due to problem with Oyster reader at FP, it wasn't paid for between FP and Harringay (which was via first capital connect).

[Old-CodJA]

Travelling down from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace a passenger arrives in Zone 3 of the TfL zonal system. If you are claiming that your inability to show a valid ticket was as result of a failure of an Oyster reader then the print-out from the Oyster monitoring system is important and you should apply for that as soon as possible. I’d also be interested to know what time of day did you make this journey and on what day of the week? (it could help)

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression from your description in your earlier posts that you came off the Victoria Line at Finsbury Park and as you came up the stairs at the northbound end of the high-level interchange, you touched your Oyster on the pad on your right at the top of the stairs. You then went the few yards along the high-level interchange corridor to the stairs for platform 6 on your right to go up to catch an FCC train to Harringay and I believe you are saying that you touched your Oyster on the pad on your left next to the self-service ticket machine?

 

If that’s the case and:

 

i) if you had touched in at the start of your journey at Victoria and

ii) if your Oyster held sufficient credit to cover the intended additional journey to Harringay, (maybe you had a season plus stored PAYG value)

 

then I’d get that print-out and pursue the complaint.

 

There is no reason why a Penalty Fare notice cannot be issued anywhere at Alexandra Palace station. FCC have a National Rail Penalty Fare scheme, whereby you would be required to pay the penalty of the greater of £20.00, or twice the single fare for the journey.

 

From a legal viewpoint, Penalty fares on National Rail are based on section 130 of the Railways Act 1993 and the rules which govern applying the penalty are the Penalty Fares Rules 2002. Under these rules any passenger found to be without a valid ticket can be issued a penalty fare notice irrespective of whether it was their intention to travel without paying.

 

In the case of Alexandra Palace the whole station is a controlled ticket area (CTA), the fact that you were on the overbridge when spoken to makes no difference to the authority to issue such a notice.

 

Hope that helps

[Mistralee]

Thank you for your advice Old-CodJA. The incident happened between 17.37 and 18.00 on a Monday. Could you please tell me who I should apply to for the printout from the Oyster monitoring service and what this would consist of? I have asked TFL for the CCTV footage but am still awaiting a response. I swiped my Oyster card as you described, and had sufficient credit on my card to pay for the brief journey three times over, which was not checked by the rpi. I've obtained a printout of my Oyster card usage which shows me swiping in at Victoria Park and swiping out at Finsbury Park, but not that I swiped in again at FP. What do you think? And isn't it true that I need to have embarked on my journey from a penalty fare location for the penalty to be legal? I did not travel from Victoria by Southern or Southeast trains which it seems would have made it a penalty fare location, but by underground. Would you know where I stand with regards to this? Thanks.

[Mistralee]

Also, is it true that if it went to court, I wouldn't be able to get legal aid to fight my case?

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, you might get a friendly duty solicitor who would give you a few minutes free advice, but you will not normally get legal aid for these matters.

[Old-CodJA]

I must first stress that I do not work for FCC, but I've had a look and it seems that you caught the 17.40 train to Hertford North, which doesn't stop at Harringay.

 

The fact that you've got the print-out already suggests that their evidence will show that you didn't touch-in on the FCC portion of the journey having already touched-out at the end of the LUL Victoria Line journey.

 

You'll have to wait to see if your request for CCTV proves fruitful, but from experience, I wouldn't hold out too much hope. At that time of the evening the high-level interchange is normally extremely busy

[Mistralee]

Thank you, and do you have any advice about the questions I asked in the post before that?

[Mistralee]

Sorry only just saw your reply. So are you saying that there is nothing I can do about this barely legalized extortion except pay up?

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you, and do you have any advice about the questions I asked in the post before that?

 

I had already answered the question about fines in the post immediately before your question.

 

If you are asking whether the Penalty Notice (PFN) was legally issued the answer is yes. You had travelled from Finsbury Park on FCC and that station & journey is wholly covered by the FCC National Rail Penalty Fares scheme. The RPI will have noted that you did not show a valid ticket when spoken to at Alexandra Palace station, therefore the issue of a PFN is justified under the rules.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[stifle]

And even if you had managed to touch in properly at Victoria, as soon as you turned around at Alexandra Palace you would have been liable to a penalty fare there for doubling back.

I concur with Old-CodJA and suggest you pay your £20 before the matter gets more serious.

[Wriggler7]

Sorry only just saw your reply. So are you saying that there is nothing I can do about this barely legalized extortion except pay up?

 

I have just filled my car with go juice, £1.29.9 a litre. Extortion? maybe. Opinions about the legallity or otherwise of a system of penalising people who failed to follow the 'rules' may or may not be valid.

 

In this forum, please feel free to use whatever phrases you wish, but I would suggest that the potential prosecuting authority will consider whether a case is 'legal', and won't worry too much about whether it is 'barely' or 'grossly', and telling them that you don't approve of 'the system' will neither win the argument, nor endear you to them.

 

Prosecutors (and Courts, parole boards and so on) like to see a touch of contrition.

[Mistralee]

I had no intention of travelling without a valid ticket. The Oyster reader failed to read my card. I feel more angry than contrite about all the lies the rpi told and the way he breached many of the penalty fares rules. Thank you for all your help, but I'm guessing you all work for the railway companies?

[honeybee13]

I had no intention of travelling without a valid ticket. The Oyster reader failed to read my card. I feel more angry than contrite about all the lies the rpi told and the way he breached many of the penalty fares rules. Thank you for all your help, but I'm guessing you all work for the railway companies?

 

Hello Mistralee. Fyi, Wriggler is a solicitor who defends people who are charged with fare-dodging. I think his advice is worth taking, but you seem to think you know better. Sadly, no-one on this thread seems to have an argument to support what you're saying.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you for all your help, but I'm guessing you all work for the railway companies?

 

I make no secret of the fact that I have worked in revenue protection & prosecution of these matters for 30+ years.

 

That doesn't mean that if you have a good case for complaint I'm not going to tell you so, but I also make no apologies for explaining the rules as they stand.

 

Good luck..

[Grotesque]

I had no intention of travelling without a valid ticket. The Oyster reader failed to read my card. I feel more angry than contrite about all the lies the rpi told and the way he breached many of the penalty fares rules. Thank you for all your help, but I'm guessing you all work for the railway companies?

 

1. Your 'intention' is irrelevent: You 'fail[ed] to show a valid ticket or validated Oyster Card on demand'...
   
2. What lies did the RPI tell? A Penalty Fare Notice is a pro-forma 'check box' and has little if any room on it for commentary...
   
3. In which way did he breach 'many of the penalty fare rules'?
   

PS if we do 'all work for the railway companies', the who would you prefer to take advice from on a railway matter? Us? Or the guy who works down the chip shop who swears he's Elvis?

 

8)