Car taken in error - a Civil Matter ?

[peugeot306]

1, Was the scrap vehicle in the same road as your drive? If it was how far was it away from your vehicle.

 

-The 'friends' car was situated approx. 100ft away from house/drive.

 

2, Did your friend give them the registration number of the car. [it would be strange to just say go pick up a 306 from anystreet]

 

-I dont know exactly what was disscused during the phone call arrangement between the driver/collector & Ms Bowen. All I really know is A.M.R. blamed the 'friend' in the letter that the boss/manager of A.M.R. sent me in late April 2009 stating a Ms Bowen told the driver/collector to take my car.

 

3, PC72 Davies an unlawful attempt to deprive? By removing the car without authority and so damaging it making it unusable is I would think depriving you of that vehicle. It would then be up to the CPS or a court to decide if it was theft.

 

-according to PC72 Davies a crime had not taken place 5/2/09 so its civil

 

4, AMR spoke to PC72 and stated that it was a genuine mistake and they were in the process of making restitution to you. However they basically told you to get lost without any deal being struck.That again deprives you of your vehicle or its worth.

 

-I dont know what A.M.R. said to the Police entirely. All I know is what was recorded in the Police log which I obtained (my post #23)

 

5, By admitting to the police they took the car by mistake, then stating that they were dealing with you to settle the matter, and then telling you to get lost again compounds the fact that they took your property, maybe mistakenly and at that point they may not have stolen it. However if you and the police told them it was your vehicle why did they not return it in its proper condition. Or settle with you on its worth. Again you have been deprived of your property.

 

-I most definitly agree, though the Police obivously have continued to think differently. Basically their response being 'talk to the hand, the matters civil', in so many words

 

6, I think you are wasting your time in the civil courts unless you can get a judgement on the correct person. AMR will just avoid paying anyway they can. They already have done.

 

-yes im begining to think the same..

 

 

I do still have both original keys, I still have the complete V5 reg document (though I am no longer the reg keeper with DVLA, understandably, since the incident date) and the car was fully comp insured. Insurers would not pay out because a crime reference could not be provided. I dont know if the insurers will still pay out now seeing as the initial incident occured way back in Feb 2009. That fully comp policy expired 12th May 2009, approx a few months after the initial incident on 5th Feb 2009.

 

I have just recently sent an email to Dyfed Powys Police explaining my concerns and dissatisfaction regarding the Police's lack overall of involvment and 'Civil matter' decision. I'm now waiting for their reply but to be honest I expect the 'talk to hand' response.

 

 

(I thank everyone so far for their informative input, thank you.)

 

All I want is the value of my car and hopefully the value of the contents (which were missing/stolen - including the tax disc) reimbursed to me and that the person/body responsible is not allowed to get away with this 'matter'. Its not right at all and I believe the Police should be/should of been always willing to 'help me' properly.

Edited October 25, 2010 by peugeot306

[mightymouse_69]

The police are correct up to a point.

 

On the 5th Feb, when the car was taken, there was no crime committed - due to the lack of dishonesty. However, as soon as they realised the mistake and refused to set things straight, an offence was committed. In law this is sometimes known as coincidence - i.e. The mental element (intention) must occur when the guilty act occurs. However the theft act deals with situations where the intent is formed after the actual taking.

 

I see that you have emailed the police, I suggest that you consider speaking to your MP. This whole situation is, frankly, ridiculous.

 

I would advise against a public prosecution - it costs. Money would be better spent seeking the advise of a lawyer as to the best way to proceed and ensuring all options (criminal and civil) are looked into.

[mightymouse_69]

As an aside - its costs money to prosecute. A conviction is not assured either and this case could involve a question of law which could complicate matters.

 

This goes some way to explaining the police reluctance to proceed properly in criminal cases - something likely to get worse.

Edited October 24, 2010 by mightymouse_69
clarity

[peugeot306]

'this will probably get worse too'

 

what is meant by this sentence, cheers.

[mightymouse_69]

'this will probably get worse too'

 

what is meant by this sentence, cheers.

 

Sorry If there was any confusion - I was referring to instances of the Police failing to take proper action in criminal cases.

 

To clear matters up, I will amend my post slightly.

 

Sorry again

[green_and_mean]

If you are fully comp insured then surely they should still pay out since the vehicle was accidently crushed? I would sue the insurance company unless there is someting in the small print that says they are not liable if some half wit takes your car whilst you are at work and sticks it in a crusher?

[peugeot306]

There apparently is something in their (insurers) small print which means I couldnt just claim for an effectivly written off car. The car was actually still in one peice (but damaged and unroadworthy) up until atleast April 2009 (I assume) because A.M.R. wrote to me saying I owe them £915 in storage fees unless I drop the matter. I was able to visit A.M.R. approx 1 week after the initial collection/incident, which occured on the 5th Feb 09, to investigate my car when it was still in one whole peice.

Edited October 25, 2010 by peugeot306

[my-spirit-soars-free]

Silly question - if AMR realised they had taken the wrong car, why didn't they just return it, and pick up the correct car? What was your "friend" doing during this time to sort out the problem? How did you become liable for storage charges?

 

Who made the decision to crush the car? Why?

 

What happened to your "friends" car?

[peugeot306]

The car was made unroadworthy/written off effectivly (though unofficially) during the process of its collection. 'Friend' has basically done nothing claiming she never told them to take my car. I became liable for storage charges for A.M.R.'s own reasons - they claim they were told to take my car by a Ms Bowen ('friend') and so in their view (put in writig in response to the letter I sent them asking them to return my car in its condition prior to collection or I want reimbursment) if I dont drop the matter/conclude the matter I am held liable to storage fee's. There (A.M.R's) postition/take on things was/is completely wrong in my view, understandably. I dont know who made the desicion to eventually crush my car. My 'friends' car was eventually scrapped by a different (more local) scrap dealer.

[esmerobbo]

Was there a reason it took you a week to go and see the car?

 

When you say it was damaged and not roadworthy, was this caused by them removing ie; lifting/towing the car or at their site?

 

£915 for storage?? did you ask them to return the car or give them permission to hold it?

 

I think the best course of action would have been to say to AMR at the time bring the car back to where you collected it from, Then called your insurance and tell them some halfwit had damaged your car and gave them AMR as the cause of the damage.

[esmerobbo]

See you posted as I wrote:-)

[my-spirit-soars-free]

The car was made unroadworthy/written off effectivly (though unofficially) during the process of its collection. 'Friend' has basically done nothing claiming she never told them to take my car. I became liable for storage charges for A.M.R.'s own reasons - they claim they were told to take my car by a Ms Bowen ('friend') and so in their view (put in writig in response to the letter I sent them asking them to return my car in its condition prior to collection or I want reimbursment) if I dont drop the matter/conclude the matter I am held liable to storage fee's. There (A.M.R's) postition/take on things was/is completely wrong in my view, understandably. I dont know who made the desicion to eventually crush my car. My 'friends' car was eventually scrapped by a different (more local) scrap dealer.

 

If your friend told AMR to take the car, then surely she would be liable for storage charges? Was your "friends" car registered to your address? Is there any chance that your friend could have got the registration wrong, did she ever drive your car?

 

Did you, at any point, ask AMR to keep the car?

 

Did you get a chance to remove your personal items from the car? Did AMR at any point dispute that it was your car?

 

Do you actually know that the car has now been scrapped?

 

 

And - given that the DVLA is the DVLA, and continuous licencing applies, have you SORNed the car? I suspect that they would hold you liable, and fine you on top of everything else for "failure to notify".

[peugeot306]

the fact that the police were not interested and would not help and assist me properly as anyone would expect, understandably, along with the happening of the actual incident itself, i was left in terrible shock and dispair ('my head was screwed' and still is). the next day A.M.R. told me to f off and get the police and courts involved. ofcourse i asked A.M.R. to return my car or reimburse me. my grandad was able to drive and travel up with me to investigate my car, i had no means of transport ofcourse. my car was unroadworthy (but still in one peice) when i saw it at A.M.R.'s yard/address. insurers not interested due to their small print, police not interested saying the matter is civil.

Edited October 25, 2010 by peugeot306

[peugeot306]

my 'friend' involved me knowing she had no right or permision to do so in any respect. her old car was not reg to my address. for certain i dont know what she said exactly. she never drove my car. i wrote to a.m.r. asking them to return my car, or reimburse me for it. i was able to travel up and collect some belongings, some were missing/stolen including tax disc. i dont know know what has happened to the car, all i know is 'its gone' - thats what the defendant told the district judge when asked. the dvla are informed of the matter and i am no longer the reg. keeper since 5th feb 2009.

Edited October 25, 2010 by peugeot306

[my-spirit-soars-free]

I reckon your best bet would be to chase the insurers. That would mean the hassle of chasing AMR/your friend would be their problem, and your insurer is not going anywhere.

 

Do you have anything in writing from your insurer turning your claim down? If so, I would go through the complaints process, and ultimately to the insurance ombudsman. Your car was taken without your consent, the keys were not in it, and the car was fully comp - I can't see any reason why the insurers should believe it is not their problem!

 

Ultimately, if the car had got towed by the council, and been damaged by that tow, it would have been the insurers problem, and they would have got the money back from the councils insurers - why would this case be any different?

[green_and_mean]

Look at it this way, if you had buildings insurance and your house was demolished by 'mistake' rather than your neighbours who had called the builders the insurance would cover it regardless of who's mistake it was....why is this any different?

[peugeot306]

Ok so I've today been to County Court in regard to adding the Defendants Ms Bowen and Valuebright Ltd. It wasnt as simple as just adding the Defendants name into the proceedings so all the effort in filing/sering the N224 forms has appeared pointless (?). The Judge has explained/decided (if I have this correct) that the small claims track (final?) Hearing is to be adjourned to a later date. What I now have to do is amend my Claim to suit Ms bowen and Valuebright Ltd being added to the Claim/Proceedings. I will then have to serve the amended Claim to the proposed additional Defendants. I have been granted 14 days to sort this matter out. I think thats it, though I'm not sure exactly what process/steps I need to take to do this. I'll be sent the details/order which the Judge ordered today so that document may clearly explain things I hope.

 

I know I should probably have/need proper legal advice on this matter/process but I feel the C.A.B. wont be any use and also the most recent legal advice/helper, from a trainee Solicitor, has told me they cannot be of any help to me, due to the stage the Proceedings are now at I believe. I wasnt happy with their help/guidance anyway, partly why I'm in this spot of bother.

 

Any help/advice guys or perhaps anymore thoughts/opinions regarding my matter? Cheers.

[green_and_mean]

I think you are getting into the realms of needing proper legal advice.

[mightymouse_69]

I think you are getting into the realms of needing proper legal advice.

 

I'd second this.

 

Look out for firms that offer a free consultation.

 

If civil action is pursued, while wining in the county court may be likely, recovery of your money may not be so straight forward.

[peugeot306]

isnt it crazy beyond belief that you can wake up, your cars gone/been taken without consent (and knowledge etc.), the body who took your car (damaging it in the process) says they were told to take it by someone/anyone, and body purchases your car in the process. police treat matter as civil as no dishonesty has occured (police investigation is one phone call to body who took it) and police are not willing ever to look into the matter any further than incident day. insurers are not interested or obliged for their own legal reasons. body who took car wont reimburse or return/repair car and person who apparently told them to take your car denies wrong doing & doesnt care. body who took your car apparently dissolves, no one accepts liability, police not involved, insurers not involved... ..for me this is all quite simply: crazy.

 

(except the fact that my car was mistakingly taken an paid for with payment/reciept put through my letterbox) i had no involment or control in the circumstances which surround my car that has eventually disappeared into thin air with out a physical trace.

 

what can you do? civil claim so far has been my only avenue.. though body responsible/liable has apparently dissolved, no one person accepts liability... a living nightmare every day for me since the 5th of feb 2009 - to date.

Edited October 25, 2010 by peugeot306

[slick132]

Hi Peugot,

 

I've commented earlier but will state my view, after seeing all that you've said about this:-

 

Your friend Miss B is a red herring and should form no part of your claim. She may be involved to some extent but, unless she told the scrap firm your car reg'n no. and told them to remove YOUR car, you cannot sue her. She didn't remove your car.

 

Claiming against the scrap dealer with their name change, their ownership change and their unlikeliness to pay you anything, is a bad idea, IMHO.

 

Involve the police, involve the insurer and let them sort any claim against the scrap dealer. Concentrate on this and don't take no for an answer.

 

Neither the police nor the insurer will want this, as it's easier for them to NOT be involved. But they should be involved whether they like it or not - only your focus and insistence will make this happen.

 

I'd discontinue at court as I think the claim is doomed to fail.

 

Take a free consultation with a local solicitor if you can, and see what they recommend. 8-)

[esmerobbo]

I have to agree with the latter posts. Even winning I don't think AMR would ever pay you.

 

The insurance company even if you did get a crime ref No at this late date will probably state you never took action to limit their loss by not getting the car returned in whatever state it was in.

 

I think Mrs Bowen will simply say I gave AMR permission to take car reg No 123 ABC and not peugeot306's car I cant see judgement against her.

 

If you look at it, it looks like AMR knew what they were doing from the start. Your car a roadworthy car, with personal items in it, taxed, and I would assume it did not look like an abandoned or scrap vehicle. It arrives back at their yard after some moron drags it onto the back of their vehicle. The boss takes a look and thinks sh1t that does not look right. The car is damaged its going to cost him money. right lads we just say this is the car we were told to pick up, and we cover are arses as we go.

 

Unfortunately I cant see your nightmare ending soon. I think as advised it would be worth getting legal advice from a good source to see if it is worth going on with this fight.

[peugeot306]

The insurance company even if you did get a crime ref No at this late date will probably state you never took action to limit their loss by not getting the car returned in whatever state it was in.

 

-I did try and take action to have my unroadworthy vehicle returned when I spoke to 'the boss' the next day on the phone who contacted me - no one could help me at A.M.R. on the actual incident day, I was fobbed off. I also wrote to A.M.R. asking them to return my vehicle.

I think Mrs Bowen will simply say I gave AMR permission to take car reg No 123 ABC and not peugeot306's car I cant see judgement against her.

-Ammanford Metal Recycling claim, in writing, that Ms Bowen told them to take my red Peugeot 306 from my drive.

 

(not sure why the text appears bigger than it should, sorry)

Edited October 26, 2010 by peugeot306

[peugeot306]

I will post links to some images in my following post..

[peugeot306]

A.M.R. reciept: http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/306peugeot/amrreciept-1.jpg

 

Police log - page1: http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/306peugeot/page1policelog.jpg

 

Police log - page2: http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/306peugeot/page2policelog.jpg

 

Police log - page3 (Police amended): http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/306peugeot/page3amendedpolicelog.jpg

 

A.M.R. response: http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/306peugeot/amrresponse.jpg

Edited October 26, 2010 by peugeot306