Cohens and CCJ

[gh2008]

She applied for set aside, had to send more forms back to court about her benefits, waiting for them to respond.

 

In the meantime - CL start to play silly games:

Pre-Bailiff? Phone number is Boston Lincolnshire, and relates to a transport company when Googled.

Why confuse the issue further with a Northern Ireland address?

Should also mention, came in a brown envelope, second class stamp - no visit at all!

 

Love the 'brick wall' pattern - sums up the feeling we have about them!

 

Just to let you know, this is a firm of bailiffs. They can (and will) try and collect whilst any application for set-aside/appeal is going on.

[gh2008]

Ida asked me to pop in ..

 

Ok, re the hearing, just because you tick 'without a hearing' does not mean it will be 'without a hearing.

 

The Court clearly decided that it was '*with* a hearing' as they charged £75 which is the with hearing fee (£40 without)

The person should have been sent a notice of hearing and alarm bells should have started to ring on receipt of Cohens bundle.....

 

As to what to do now ...

 

It is difficult now, I think perhaps a visit to a local solicitor or the CAB for help as IMHO she is out of her depth even applying for a set-aside and is going to need lots of help when it comes to defending the claim.

 

Is the Judgement payable forthwith? Is it for over £600?

[gh2008]

What was in the Witness Statement for the set-aside - can you post it up?

[consumeredge]

Hi Hillards

 

Having read this, unfortunately you were the one who ticked the box "without a hearing" the court have done nothing wrong, merely confirming when you asked what you requested within your N244, the application to be heard without a hearing.

 

Cohens would have been sent a copy of your application by the court, and knowing you would not be attending took advantage by appearing themselves on the day, I'm interested that the court state upon hearing "council" for the claimant - I would be asking the court what exactly "council" stated.

 

It appears "councils" costs were awarded against you on the day, so I take this meaning the original application fee was waived, if the payments are to high I would submit N245 to have the payments reduced together with another EX160.

 

I still beleive you have a case to have the judgement set aside, what did you state within the application as reasons to have the claim set aside?

[gh2008]

Cohens would have been sent a copy of your application by the court, and knowing you would not be attending took advantage by appearing themselves on the day, I'm interested that the court state upon hearing "council" for the claimant - I would be asking the court what exactly "council" stated.

 

Sorry I disagree, the COURT decided it needed a hearing hence the £75 fee. Both sides should have been sent a 'Notice of Hearing'

 

You will not get to see what Counsel said, but they would not have said much, probably commented on the lack of appearance by the applicant which, unless the applicant's WS was a killer the application would have been summarily dismissed.

 

Costs were quite 'conservative' that is a standard attendance fee (which would be totally expected) as opposed to punitive costs.

[consumeredge]

N244 is a general Application notice.

 

Q3. What order are you asking the court to make and why?

 

Q4. Have you attached a draft of the order you are applying for? Y/N

 

Q5. How do you want to have this application dealt with?

Tick...

At a Hearing?

Without a hearing?

At a telephone hearing?

 

Q6. How long do you think the hearing will last? Hrs Mins

Is this time estimate agreed by all parties? Y/N

 

Q7. Give details of any fixed trial date or period

 

Q8. What level of Judge does your hearing need?

 

Q9. Who should be served with this application?........................Howard Cohen & Solicitor

 

Q10. What information will you be relying on, in support of your application?

Tick....

The attached witness statement

The statement of case

The evidence set out below

 

Fees are set, £75 with a hearing £40 without a hearing, however, hearings for setting aside on judgement are a set fee - £75.

 

Upon receipt by the court form N244a is then issued to all parties, Notice of Hearing of Application "The hearing of the defendant's application for Setting Judgement Aside will take place at 11:30 am on the 27th October 2008 at the County Court, Address, Post Code"

 

Day of the hearing..............

 

Win or lose, The court issues General Form of Judgement or Order, To the Defendant " Before District Judge Another sitting at the County Court.

 

Upon reading the claimants letter and hearing the defendant in person.

 

It is ordered that;

 

Judgement is set aside.

 

Statement attached to notice of application do stand as the Defendants defence.

 

Dated 27 October 2008.

 

The above is a genuine case I assisted in.

 

When the claimant issues a summons and this is defended, the Judge then has to allocate the case to a suitable track, the court has no influence towards an application hearing when a defendant submits their Application Notice, the defendant specifies what they require for the application to be heard.

 

It is the defendants choice if they wish to have their application heard at a hearing, or without a hearing, the N244 questionaire is quite specific, unfortunately hillards made a genuine mistake, I'm sure had hillards known, he would have asked for the application to be heard at a hearing, where he could then have attended and acted as the Lady's lay representative, I would also think the court where the application was heard was not to far from Cleckheaton (cohens terriorty).

 

The court staff I believe were right in what they said, they believed there was no need to attend, the application was requested without a hearing by the defendant, miscommunication, not malice, cohens are to blame, they attended without notifying the defendant. Legal yes, ethical no.

 

hillards can appeal, the appeal would then be heard by a higher level judge, the appeal has to be made within 14 days of the application hearing and I'm not sure if time is on their side, to say they were way out of their depth was unkind and demoralising.

[IdaInFife]

thanks gh and fg

 

 

Ida x

[gh2008]

 

The above is a genuine case I assisted in. Not too sure of its relevance here but anyway ....

 

When the claimant issues a summons and this is defended, the Judge then has to allocate the case to a suitable track, the court has no influence towards an application hearing when a defendant submits their Application Notice, the defendant specifies what they require for the application to be heard. Errrr not true, and you are confusing Claimant& Defendant, with Applicant and Respondent

 

It is the defendants choice if they wish to have their application heard at a hearing, or without a hearing, the N244 questionaire is quite specific, again not true unfortunately hillards made a genuine mistake, I'm sure had hillards known, he would have asked for the application to be heard at a hearing, where he could then have attended and acted as the Lady's lay representative, I would also think the court where the application was heard was not to far from Cleckheaton (cohens terriorty). The application should have been heard at the Defendant's(Applicant's) local Court as they are a LiP and the other side carry on business in that area. If it wasn't then that in itself would be a reason to have it set-aside

 

The court staff I believe were right in what they said, they believed there was no need to attend, the application was requested without a hearing by the defendant, miscommunication, not malice, cohens are to blame, they attended without notifying the defendant. Legal yes, ethical no.

 

The Court issued a notice of Hearing, it was up to the parties to attend

 

hillards can appeal, the appeal would then be heard by a higher level judge, the appeal has to be made within 14 days of the application hearing and I'm not sure if time is on their side, to say they were way out of their depth was unkind and demoralising.

 

I am sorry if you consider my comments unkind and demoralising - unfortunately we are dealing with reality here. We are also not dealing with the person concerned, but an advisor to that person.

 

To suggest an appeal, without knowing the defence to the original claim is, imho, irresponsible. An appeal could open the defendant to costs of £000s. As no new evidence can be used at appeal and AFAIK no evidence has been put forward by the defendant I cannot see how this will work.

 

The notes from the N244 that was filled in includes this paragraph

 

Question 5

Most applications will require a hearing and you

will be expected to attend. The court will allocate a

hearing date and time for the application. Please

indicate in a covering letter any dates that you are

unavailable within the next six weeks.

The court will only deal with the application ‘without a

hearing’ in the following circumstances.

• Where all the parties agree to the terms of the

order being asked for;

• Where all the parties agree that the court should

deal with the application without a hearing, or

• Where the court does not consider that a hearing

would be appropriate.

 

My emphasis although you will note that the Court decides when an Application will be dealt with without a hearing as opposed to the Applicant

 

IMHO the defendant arguing that they did not read the notes, and did not understand the need to attend the hearing will be difficult.

Your best bet, again jmho, would be to seek legal advice via a local solicitor, most offer a free 30mins.

 

If they now have, used the time to produce a solid defence to the claim then you are more likely to get it heard.

 

If it can be shown that the claim is flawed then that is your best bet, it will require evidence from the claim on the PPI. If the PPI doesn't cover the claim then you may well have a claim against the creditor for missold PPI.

 

Again, this is very messy - I would seek the advice of a solicitor urgently

[consumeredge]

The relevance is that I submitted a N244 on behalf of a family member, application was heard at the Norwich Combined County Court 27 October 2008, the judgement was set aside, I also helped a fellow cagger this year with a set aside, its on the forum for all to read, cohens had again obtained judgement without his knowledge, he also won.

 

N244 Q2. Are you a Claimant? Defendant? Solicitor? Other? how is that confusing Claimant & Defendant with Applicant and Respondent? As you first complete the form stating you are the Defendant then sign the form as (I believe)(the applicant believes) that the facts stated in this section (and any continuation sheets) are true.

 

You are making an Application to have the Judgement Set Aside being the Defendant in the case.

 

N244 questions are very specific, when a defendant seeks a General Judgement or Order via Application N244 how many are required to attend a court hearing say, for disclosure? court forms a designed to cover all eventualities.

 

I think your confusing issues when I said I would think the court is not to far from Cleckheaton, the reason I said this is because cohen doesn't normally travel that far:

 

"the application should have been heard at the defendants (Applicant's) local court as they are Lip and the other side carry on business in that area, if it wasn't then that in itself would be a reason to have it set aside" I don't understand what you mean by that, as it is abundtly clear the hearing was heard at the defendants local court, re hillards phone calls to the court.

 

"The court issued a notice of hearing, it was up to the parties to attend"

 

IMHO that just sums up your attitude, why even post comments when everything you offer is so negative, hillards is just an adviser? unfortunately we are dealing in reality? - you say an appeal could cost what? this is the small claims court - solicitors are not cheap.

 

No defence - well I think the defence is the lady never recieved the original summons, a Default Notice or Notice of Assignment from the OC, or letter of Impending Action from cohen, therefore, she was never given a chance to submit a defence, hillards is trying to help, seeking advice from the forum, the lady in question is in severe financial difficulties hillards should be supported

 

I'll leave this thread, serves no purpose petty nit picking - good luck hillards, I'm sure someone will offer sound advice

[foolishgirl]

I am not going to join in a slanging match, consumeredge, but I agree with most of what gh has stated.

 

1. When you submit a N244 you are the applicant, the other side is the respondent, no matter what the description of each in the original claim/hearing. IMO the court will overlook misnaming & it may be nit-picking but gh is correct

 

2. In your experience, Cohens may not travel far from home but that does not prevent them sending 'their representative' from a local company of solicitors wherever in the country that may be

 

3. gh is correct in his statement that appeals can be expensive if you lose & that goes for CC level aswell as COA level as the loser has to bear the other side's costs which may be that of a barrister, not just Joe Bloggs solicitor from down the road

 

4. I think gh has been very supportative of Hillards (as have other CAGers) but Hillards has sought advice on behalf of someone else & he has not posted any docs (as far as I can see) which makes it extremely difficult to assess the case.

eg. gh is correct in that a Notice of Hearing should have been sent. I suspect it was as otherwise the 'lady' & Hillard wouldn't have known a date - hence my comments above re. attending court when a date is set.

We are all aware that relaying a story from someone else can be a bit like chinese whispers even if no-one intends it to be so. Therefore gh was right to be cautious in the advice he proffered.

 

You were obviously fortunate in the outcome of the case for your relative, consumeredge, & I am pleased you are proud of your result. However you must recogonise that not all cases are the same or text book & gh is just trying to play devil's advocate with an unusual situation for the poster's benefit.

[consumeredge]

Fortunate in the outcome for the case of my relative? interesting comment, My son-in-laws case was identical to bino's, that is why I offered to help Bino, I saw another case recently posted, again identical, judgement awarded against whilst making regular payment via Payplan Limited, true not all cases are the same, although having dealt with 5 cases previously and with 2 still ongoing; from Norfolf to Reading to Bristol and Manchester, Howard Cohen use the same POC's, be it GE Money, Santander, MBNA, CL Finance Ltd or whoever, a tried and tested formula - I take no pleasure or am proud of any result, no one enjoys a court appearance

 

you should read your own offering "It clearly says on your form that the case would be heard without a hearing & you double checked by phone so that is what you were relying on & you should have been able to trust that the information you were given was correct. I would tell him I was giving him the opportunity to rectify the matter before I exposed him to the mercies of my local MP & the press.

 

Devils Advocate.... hillmeads been a cagger since 2006.

 

But your absolutely right in one thing, I've no wish to enter a slanging match.

 

Goodbye

[gh2008]

If do hope the lady in questions is going to seek proper legal advice over this.

 

However is she doesn't yes, the bailiffs look as though they have already been involved.

 

If she is not going to get advice about how to deal with the CCJ against her, the best she can now do is limit its effect.

 

She will need to apply for a stay of execution and apply for a redetermination.

Stay of Execution is a stay of the enforcement, i.e. no bailiffs or collectors or anything like that, redetermination will give her an opportunity to put her side as to why she cannot afford to pay it all at once, and hopefully agree an affordable repayment.

 

Hopefully the case is still at County Court level, although if it is for over £650 then the Claimant can transfer it to the High Court for enforcement instruct the High Court Enforcement Officers to attend without notice and they are not so nice. If that happens or she sees words like 'Fi Fa' in correspondence then yell.

[debbbbsy]

Hi guys,

 

I have also had my own dealings with CL & Howard Cohen. I successfully got them to discontinue legal proceedings against me, that was almost 2 years ago. What I am seeing now, are similar cases, which I help where I can, but the DCA's are obviously reading these threads, and changing the way they respond. So, although cases are similar, we can nolonger predict how they react to any defence.

 

Worse then that, and even more unpredictable are the way the court system seems to work in favour of the claimant, and disregards the rights of the plaintiff/consumer.

 

Perhaps the problem is not the advice being given, but unforeseen complications.

[foolishgirl]

Perhaps the problem is not the advice being given, but unforeseen complications.

 

I agree Debbsy. Not only are consumers wising up to the tricks of the DCAs & the pitfalls of the court processes but the DCAs are becoming more aware too & the DJs seem to be taking a tougher line on the burden of proof. Unfortunately a lot of them seem to think it's up to the Defendant to prove the Claimant has no case & not the other way round.

[hillards]

Obviously the importance of the hearing notification was not seen, taking it that the application to set aside would be heard at that point and the whole merry go round would be put into reverse to the point where the lady would be able to have her day in court.

 

A letter has been sent to the court manager to point out that she was advised that she need not attend by virtue of the box being marked 'without hearing', and see if they can do something about that.

 

If not, she will need to make representation to the court to have the matter brought back for redetermination as she simply cannot afford the amount entered in the original judgement. Advice of the court manager has been requested as to what she should do.

 

In the meantime, Cohen have been very quick to send her a letter demanding payment or they will instruct the court....

[gh2008]

I do hope she has applied for a Stay of Execution as per my post #37

[hillards]

I do hope she has applied for a Stay of Execution as per my post #37

 

That is mentioned in the letter to the court manager, asking him if that is the correct course of action. May as well ask him what's best to do, he should know.

[foolishgirl]

....asking him if that is the correct course of action. May as well ask him what's best to do, he should know.

 

Think you'll be lucky - court staff will not express opinions on your intended legal actions.

[gh2008]

Think you'll be lucky - court staff will not express opinions on your intended legal actions.

 

took the words right out of my mouth ......

 

IMHO and I will say it again - her best bet is to go and see a local solicitor using their free 30 mins appointment offers that a lot of them do

or go to the CAB - they could actually be a very choice in these circumstances

[hillards]

Think you'll be lucky - court staff will not express opinions on your intended legal actions.

 

Of course, that depends on how well you know staff at the court. As it happens, someone I have known for several years works at our local court and has been very helpful in guiding me in the course of action needed. I didn't know he worked in that area until I dropped the letter in this afternoon... Sort of glad I didn't post it now, only reason I called in was because the letterbox is quite close to the court and I would actually go past to post a letter. Saved a stamp, a day, and got some answers.

 

So, she has a new N244 to complete, which will request a set aside plus a stay of execution. The set aside will say that we were unaware of the procedure and had earlier been advised that there was no need to attend. This will be on top of stating the facts relating to the lack of original communication regarding the court hearing she knew nothing about until it had happened.

 

Yes, we'll keep a copy of the N244 this time so I can post the exact wording up. Unless there are any suggestions of choice words to use before she does that? She also has an EX160 to apply for fee remission as she's on a qualifying benefit.

 

I'm also asking her to chase up the OC (again) on her claim for payment protection, which she applied for when she was out of work, and was the main cause of all this. Until they failed to deal with that, she had been paying regularly.

[foolishgirl]

As it happens, someone I have known for several years works at our local court and has been very helpful in guiding me in the course of action needed

 

Well you were lucky today then!