arrow global llc and i , Further help required. - BATTLE CONTINUES

[bobbydog]

give me 5 for the defence

[citizenB]

Right, so that is the Particulars of Claim and they havent updated them.

 

Lets see what they have put in their defence.

[Docman]

CB

 

The problem is that bobbydog was a little overenthusiastic at the hearing to set aside the default judgment and interim charging order, once the proceedings were transferred to his local court. He must have printed off the draft defence I posted to help him with the next stage AFTER a successful set aside, signed the defence and then made copies. According to the court order setting aside the charging order, he gave one copy to the claimant's solicitors and one to the judge who accepted it as his filed defence. The claimant's solicitors have filed a Response to the Defence as they were ordered to and basically put the onus back to bobbydog to prove his defence. They also pointed out (no doubt with great delight) that bobbydog had submitted that the Default Notice had been dated "xx MONTH 20xx" since bobbydog hadn't changed the dates in the draft defence.

 

I have been looking to find a reason to ask the court's permission to file an amended defence but I can't find one. Even if you could find some reason, there would no doubt be an objection from the claimant's solicitors as they have formally submitted a four page detailed Response to the Defence.

 

The next stage is that AQs are due to be exchanged by 6 September. bobbydog could ask for directions for the claimant to produce the ageeement but as it appears these were produced at court at the hearing, I don't know how far the judge would go in granting disclosure. I do not know how the claimant produced the documents to the court. There does not appear to be any witness statement exhibiting them.

 

Alternatively, could any one advise on the merits of a CPR 31.14/15 application to inspect the originals when the Defence and Response indicate the defendant has the documents in his possession?

[bobbydog]

page 1 defence

 

[citizenB]

CB

 

The problem is that bobbydog was a little overenthusiastic at the hearing to set aside the default judgment and interim charging order, once the proceedings were transferred to his local court. He must have printed off the draft defence I posted to help him with the next stage AFTER a successful set aside, signed the defence and then made copies. According to the court order setting aside the charging order, he gave one copy to the claimant's solicitors and one to the judge who accepted it as his filed defence. The claimant's solicitors have filed a Response to the Defence as they were ordered to and basically put the onus back to bobbydog to prove his defence. They also pointed out (no doubt with great delight) that bobbydog had submitted that the Default Notice had been dated "xx MONTH 20xx" since bobbydog hadn't changed the dates in the draft defence.

 

I have been looking to find a reason to ask the court's permission to file an amended defence but I can't find one. Even if you could find some reason, there would no doubt be an objection from the claimant's solicitors as they have formally submitted a four page detailed Response to the Defence.

 

The next stage is that AQs are due to be exchanged by 6 September. bobbydog could ask for directions for the claimant to produce the ageeement but as it appears these were produced at court at the hearing, I don't know how far the judge would go in granting disclosure. I do not know how the claimant produced the documents to the court. There does not appear to be any witness statement exhibiting them.

 

Alternatively, could any one advise on the merits of a CPR 31.14/15 application to inspect the originals when the Defence and Response indicate the defendant has the documents in his possession?

 

Ooooh.. b*gger.. Yes, I see where you are concerned docman.. I will ask around to see if there is any way an amended defence might be allowed.

 

I am rather puzzled by Arrow's point 2.

 

They say:

 

2: The Claimant submits that the agreement was not properly executed as required by section 6 1of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Defendant is put to strict proof of his submissions.

 

So they are saying that agreement was NOT properly executed and bobbydog has to prove this.. well havent they just admitted that it wasnt !!

 

I can see no reason why a CPR31.15 request to inspect the original documents shouldnt be sent. But it needs to be done immediately.

 

I

[bobbydog]

page 2

 

 

[bobbydog]

page 3

 

[bobbydog]

page 4

 

 

[bobbydog]

ok lads, i may have been presumptious, but not having been to court before, i thought i had to hand my defence to judge and solicitor

so basically i did wrong now i know but can we beat them ......................

[citizenB]

The Default notice claims that you have breached clause 8 - failing to pay the minimum payment. I can see no clause 8 on any of the documetns you have posted up and from what I can work out the clause containing the minimum payment would be in clause 10 ?

 

They say in their defence that the account was assigned to them on 16 April 2007 and the informed you on 4th May 2007. However the Notice of Assignment claims that they assigned the account effective 4th May 2007 ?

[citizenB]

They say that you should not have the benefit of submitting another Valid defence.. ooh what about justice then lol.

 

I can see no reason why you cannot submit a rebuttal witness statement though in response to their defence

[bobbydog]

ok then citizenb how do i go about doing that please

[bobbydog]

and before we go much further WHAT are chances slim.........slim to good................or good

[citizenB]

So IMHO, you would not be putting in an amended defence.. but a rebuttal witness statement. This is just an example.

 

I bobbydog, make this statement in response to the Witness Statement, dated XX XXXXXX and submitted by the Claimant, NAME OF CREDITOR. The matters referred to in this statement are within my own knowledge, except where I have indicated otherwise.

 

You would then go through each point on the Claimants statement for example.

 

Point 2 of the Claimants Defence admits (or confirms) that the Agreement was not properly executed as required by s61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Point ? of the Claimants Defence states that the account was assigned to them on 16th April 2007, however the Notice of Assignment clearly states tha it was assigned on 4th May 2007.

etc, etc..

 

 

You would submit this with a letter to the court manager..

 

In respect of the above hearing and with due regard for the overriding objectives of the CPR.

I respectfully request that the attached rebuttal statement be put before District Judge XXXX to be considered alongside Claimant's Defence dated XXXXX

 

So you need to go through that Defence point by point and destroy it.

 

[citizenB]

ok then citizenb how do i go about doing that please

 

See post above.

[citizenB]

and before we go much further WHAT are chances slim.........slim to good................or good

 

I guess it all depends on how strong your arguments are in rebuttal.

[bobbydog]

right lets get started

 

question 1 on their defence reply

my answer

if they claim that the original t/c were applied to the agreement i signed on 21-11-04 then how did they put my name and address on the t/c before i sent the application

also the original t/c docs and supposed agreement form states clearly that in line 3 twice, line 14 once that the thing i signed is an application as in APPLICATION FORM it is also folded in three, as per a folded application form there are no folds on any of the t/c's

[bobbydog]

also at the bottom of the alleged agreement it says, look at section 23

in the t/cs sent to me there is no section 23

[citizenB]

Yes you are on the right track.

 

What you need to do is to make a list of all the discrepancies you can find. Then using the format I provided in an earlier post put them together. If you want to do that then put the whole thing into one post we can go through it with you.

 

It is best you try to do this yourself in the first instance because it will be you standing in court not us.

[bobbydog]

this was a posting by another cagger on another thread

is there any relevence in my cca

 

 

it is a pre contractual application form

 

it is not headed CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

 

It does not contain, between the heading and the signatureboxes the prescribed terms of the contract and other essential information

 

i cannot see the print in the bottom as to if it refers to any terms and conditionsoverleaf or attached

 

the prescribed terms must be CONTAINED within the signature document

 

The Whole of the terms and conditionsmust be EMBODIED within it 9this could include attached to it)

 

i think you already worked out that terms are referred to and are not there

 

you must have been supplied with a copy of the signed agreement within 7 days of signing the agreement

 

all in all this is almost certain to be a naff agreement (why else would they sell it for peanuts?)

 

Dont worry about what you admitted or offered over the phone- you were undoubtedly pressured and out of your depth and now know what you did not know before

 

it would be small claims which would mean that they cannot load costs onto you

 

i personally would write and state that having taken advice you are more than confident that the agreement is not a legally enforceable agreement , however in order to rid yourself of the nuisance value you will offer £250 in Full and finalsettlement of the matter failing which you intend to defend any action that may be brought against you

 

but the choice is yours

 

you will get plenty of help to defend it on this forum

 

i doubt that you will get the adverse removed - you cant have your cake and eat it

[diddydicky]

THE DEFAULT NOTICE

 

is interesting

 

i presume that in 2006 the time for remedy was 7 days

 

so the DN was dated (monday) 17 April and demanded remedy within 10 days( Tues)27th

 

assuming it was sent first class it would have been served (weds) 19th therefore it gave you 7 days to remedy

 

HOWEVER -( and fatally in my opinion) the DN then stated that you must allow 5 working days for the payment to reach your account- therefore you would have to have paid the money into the bank no later than Thursday 20th in order to comply with the DN

 

thursday was the FIRST day after service therefore the creditor was giving you less than 1 day to remedy

 

however (again) and as is more likely- if the DN was posted 2nd class (or if they cannot prove first class) then it would have been served on you on (Friday ) 21st

 

in this case- again allowing 5 working days to clear the money into your account- you would have had to have paid the money demanded in the DN on Thursday 20th - which is one day before you were served with the DN!!

 

perhaps they thought you were phsycic

[Docman]

bobbydog

 

Sorry I've been tied up at work after being away on holiday.

 

You are on the right track in following CB's advice. I also agree with dd's comments about the default notice. But actually I would go further in that this is the most perfectly constructed DN I have seen. The odd thing is that when Arrow Global LLC started operations here, they couldn't even get their own address right and made a complete dog's breakfast of the other documents. Not that I am suggesting that Fred International would manufacture a false document to file at court, of course. As a reputable debt collection agent, I am sure they would not any such thing.

 

Please crack on with a witness statement covering the main points in their 'Response to the Defence'.

[citizenB]

Hope you had a nice holiday Docman. Yes, I agree with you in respect of the AG default notice. I went back and had a look at the one they sent me last year. It looked as though it had been printed on a machine with a faulty ink / toner cartridge and then kicked round the mail room floor. It had no dates at all on it and was supposedly a notice of assignment at the same time !

 

It is hard to believe that their standards deteriorated from 2006 when bobbydog's was prepared to 2008/9 when mine was issued One would have expected it to be the other way round.

[bobbydog]

evening all

crikey!!!! sound like dixon of dock green...............lol

in posting 133 i posted a letter with no company name on it

suppo0sedly sent from cap one is that normal for capital one to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

now this letter might be handy to use

BECAUSE in 2006 i was in sri lanka, building an orphanage from 12-1-06 to 1-7-06

and that is stamped on my passport. so where did it go, as it was not recieved here!!!!!!!!!!!

[bobbydog]

HAS anyone any letters from either AG or CAP ONE can you please check the typing on it please and check if the type is the same as these letters

i have just checked the two letters from AG and non headed letter and there are exactly the same.

now these letters are supposedly from two firms and with over a year spaced between them

what are the odds of two firms using the same/evact fonts for over the space of a year