Atos Health Care/postggj Taking Them To Court

[Florence Z]

Hi Kelcou, gg, Ruby et al

 

Kelcou, you say ATOS don't understand.

 

With respect to all, will everyone please understand, that, ATOS DO UNDERSTAND! THEY ARE NOT THICK!!

 

The reason why they are passing so many people as fit for work, when clearly those many people are NOT fit for work (Although I suppose everyone IS fit for work! BUT for how many hours, days etc before they collapse or are in excruciating agony) is NOT BECAUSE THEY DONT UNDERSTAND!

 

It is because it is ATOS'S mission to get as many people as possible off benefits, by hook or by "crook"! (Nice double' entandre' re "crook":D).

 

As I have said elsewhere, if we had only a head, with no limbs or torso, ATOS would say we are fit to work as a bowling ball in a ten pin bowling alley!!!

 

Re the litigation, has anyone found any info re cases being taken further after the BBC documentary in 2006 which showed medical reports being falsified, resulting in claimants being taken off benefit.

 

Good luck to all!

 

Coogaah

[postggj]

DURING MY DIRT DIGGING ON ATTOS I CAME ACROSS THIS.

 

 

AFTER YOUR CONSULTATION, ALL THE NOTES ARE FED INTO A COMPUTER PROGRAM CALLED

 

LIMA SOFTWARE

 

That stands for

 

LOGIC INTERGRATED MEDICAL ASSESMANT.

 

 

NOW THAT’S OVER WITH, MY QUESTION

 

TRYING TO GET ATTOS TO CONFIRM THE MEDICAL QUALIFICATIONS ON ITS AGENT

 

CAN A REQUEST BE MADE UNDER CPR, AND IF SO, WHICH ONE, FOR THE RELEASE OF THAT INFO

Edited November 30, 2009 by ErikaPNP
please refer to section 3.12 of the forum rules

[ee-bee]

i am behind you all the way

[postggj]

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request received on 2009. You asked for:-

 

A downloadable copy of the LiMA Software

 

Logic Integrated Medical Assessment (LiMA) software only functions as an interactive process during an assessment, it has no independent function and is designed to run on Atos Healthcare networked based PCs not standalone PCs. Furthermore we have decided not to release specific technical data relating to LiMA software for the following reasons.

 

Reasons for claiming exemption

 

We consider the information exempt from disclosure under section 43 (2) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (the “Act”). This is because, in our opinion, the disclosure of the information under the Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of both DWP and a third party licensee of DWP.

 

In this regard, we can tell you that DWP holds copyright, the intellectual property rights and has licensed a third party to use, customise, distribute, incorporate, market, maintain, support, sell and sub-license LiMA (and other software) in return for payment of a royalty to DWP. In that licence, DWP confirms that it will not, in effect, allow any other party similar rights.

 

The LiMA software program is not only integral to the conduct of DWP business, it also represents a significant commercial interest to the DWP. Therefore we decline to provide the software, any technical or other information that would enable full or partial reproduction of the LiMA system.

 

While we acknowledge that, if supplied to you, the information would continue to be protected by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (which would prohibit certain commercial re-use of the information by you) we have, after full consideration, reached the conclusion that the likelihood of prejudice to our commercial interests, and those of our licensee, remains. The information has inherent commercial value in terms of the business methods it reflects and the concepts it employs, neither of which is adequately protected by the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.

 

To place this information in the public domain would undermine the basis of the arrangement reached by DWP with its licensee, as it would threaten the uniqueness of the information upon which assessments of commercial risk and return have been made and in relation to which commercial positions have been adopted and acted upon by the parties. We also consider that release of the information would be likely to place DWP at a significant disadvantage in seeking to secure similar licensing arrangements with third parties in the future.

 

In applying the exemption under section 43 (2) of the Act, we have considered whether, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information. We have concluded that it does. We have reached this conclusion because, in our view, the public interest in understanding how the LiMA system works, and in being assured that the LiMA system properly reflects and supports the identification and assessment of benefit entitlements, can be met by a non-technical description of the system, and the role it is intended to play in the decision making process.

 

We are also mindful of the fact that any public concerns about the integrity of LiMA can be met and fully addressed through due process of the benefit system itself, which contains rights of review and appeal covering both the DWP’s decision on entitlement to benefit, and the process by which that decision is arrived at. Conversely, we do not believe that the public interest would be served by creating an environment, which adversely impacts the public sector’s ability to obtain a secondary benefit from its investment in information systems.

 

Were the public sector to release, under the Act, commercially valuable information such as that inherent in the LiMA system, the public sector would find it difficult to engage the expertise of commercial licensees (an expertise the public sector does not have) in deriving latent value from its information systems, to the detriment of the general taxpayer who would be deprived of the royalty revenue which might otherwise be realisable. For these reasons, we believe that it is right to maintain the exemption in relation to the specific information you seek.

 

If you have any queries about this letter please contact me quoting the reference number above.

 

 

Comments anyone?

[Surfer01]

If you are having a medical with ATOS can you refuse the appointment unless you are seen by a qualified doctor? I got the form the other day to complete and it says it needs to be back with them by the 7th January 2008 by which time I should be signing on for JSA hopefully. If not, guess it will be a medical. probably go to DIAL for help in completing the form. Never done this before. The joke is that I can only do clerical work and then for only brief spells but there is no work out there anyway for a 60 year with a disability so claiming JSA © is going to be no diffeent except for signing on!

Go get them as I am sure you will get loads of support from this forum.

[postggj]

ime shooting in the dark with dla and dwp

 

atos now are the occupational health team at work

its there lousy/crap diagnosis that put me in hospital ime upset with

[postggj]

Just Updating

Still Going Through The Court With This

 

Ime Just Back Home After The Third Operation On My Knee.

 

Thats The One Atos In There Report To My Boss Stated

 

i Was Exagerating My Condition And Recomend I Go Back To Full Time Duties

 

Muppetts

 

I Realy Feel For All You With Dla Claims Being Decided By This Atos

[Florence Z]

Hi Postggj

 

Nice to see you are staying strong.

 

Your posting gave me a good laugh - the bit about Atos stating you're exaggerating etc etc! It is almost exactly what they said about me, then after their falsified pack of lies medical report (Which they have admitted to) I was diagnosed by "proper" doctors (consultants etc) that I needed further operations and also I had further problems - with prolapsed vertebrae and impinged nerves in neck which are causing even more problems.

 

Nice to see "At arse (Atos)" are so consistent with their falsifications!

 

Hope you recover well and good luck with your case.

 

Merry Christmas to all and the best of luck for the new year and beyond.

 

Coogaah

[postggj]

Thanks Florence

 

That Was The Bigest Mistake They Made Was Doing A Report In Writing

 

Kaching

[kurvaface]

Hi postggj.

 

What tests were performed as part of this so called assessment?

 

Did the OT have access to previous clinical records such as radiology reports?

 

KV

[postggj]

Hi Kurvaface

 

All That Happened Was An Appointment Was Done For This Atos Rep To Come To My Place Of Work For A Medical.

Did The Dctor Thing And Went Away.

 

Then I Got That Defamatory Report Sent To My Boss With Out My Consent Under The Dpa Saying I Was Putting It All On.

 

They Made No Contact With My Gp Or Hospital.

 

Ive Found Out That This PErson Has No Medical Qualifications.

 

What Atos Do Is Put All The Notes Into A Computer Program. Its Called

 

Lima

 

Logic Investigation Medical Assesment

 

Its A Virtual Doctor

 

Its The Same Ref The Goverment And Dla Claims

[kurvaface]

This is no way to conduct a medical examiniation.

 

Without the relevant clinical history and diagnostic reports it would have been very very easy for this "OT" to worsen your condition. EG - you had a medial meniscus rupture and then this dummy is getting you to flex your leg, twist and load it. Even an experienced clinician would approach this with caution and most certainly would not produce a definitive conclusion about your condition without x-rays or possibly MRI / exploratory arthroscopy, and as for the OT giving such a certain view of your working capability - I'm gobsmacked.

 

I find it very disturbing that your employer could / would expose you to this kind of risk and harm.

 

I think it would be worth exploring how this could be reported to the GMC because it is completely contradictory to good health care.

[postggj]

I Totally Agree

 

Ime Making Waves With Royal Mail Over Atos

 

Any Sugestions With This Line Of Attack

 

I Have A Court Claim Against Atos Allready In The System

[patrickq1]

just know what you are up against post these guys are within the corriders of power...

patrickq1

some answers you need are here how to ask for information etc...

DWP ESA Medical Examinations Letters

[postggj]

Yep I Know

 

Who Owns The Copyright To The Lima Software

 

Dept Work And Pensions

 

It Stinks

[postggj]

Thats A Great Link Patrick

[patrickq1]

a letter from the DWP medical services contract management team government buildings spur B 1 Cop lane Pensworth Preston PR1 0SA

 

It goes down similar lines but has more information.

 

Logic Integrated Medical Assessment (LiMA) software only functions as an interactive process during an assessment, it has no independent function and is designed to run on Atos Healthcare networked based PCs not standalone PCs. Furthermore we have decided not to release specific technical data relating to LiMA software for the following reasons.

 

Reasons for claiming exemption

 

We consider the information exempt from disclosure under section 43 (2) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (the “Act”). This is because, in our opinion, the disclosure of the information under the Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of both DWP and a third party licensee of DWP.

 

In this regard, we can tell you that DWP holds copyright, the intellectual property rights and has licensed a third party to use, customise, distribute, incorporate, market, maintain, support, sell and sub-license LiMA (and other software) in return for payment of a royalty to DWP. In that licence, DWP confirms that it will not, in effect, allow any other party similar rights.

 

The LiMA software program is not only integral to the conduct of DWP business, it also represents a significant commercial interest to the DWP. Therefore we decline to provide the software, any technical or other information that would enable full or partial reproduction of the LiMA system.

 

While we acknowledge that, if supplied to you, the information would continue to be protected by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (which would prohibit certain commercial re-use of the information by you) we have, after full consideration, reached the conclusion that the likelihood of prejudice to our commercial interests, and those of our licensee, remains. The information has inherent commercial value in terms of the business methods it reflects and the concepts it employs, neither of which is adequately protected by the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.

 

To place this information in the public domain would undermine the basis of the arrangement reached by DWP with its licensee, as it would threaten the uniqueness of the information upon which assessments of commercial risk and return have been made and in relation to which commercial positions have been adopted and acted upon by the parties. We also consider that release of the information would be likely to place DWP at a significant disadvantage in seeking to secure similar licensing arrangements with third parties in the future.

 

In applying the exemption under section 43 (2) of the Act, we have considered whether, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information. We have concluded that it does. We have reached this conclusion because, in our view, the public interest in understanding how the LiMA system works, and in being assured that the LiMA system properly reflects and supports the identification and assessment of benefit entitlements, can be met by a non-technical description of the system, and the role it is intended to play in the decision making process.

 

We are also mindful of the fact that any public concerns about the integrity of LiMA can be met and fully addressed through due process of the benefit system itself, which contains rights of review and appeal covering both the DWP’s decision on entitlement to benefit, and the process by which that decision is arrived at. Conversely, we do not believe that the public interest would be served by creating an environment, which adversely impacts the public sector’s ability to obtain a secondary benefit from its investment in information systems.

 

Were the public sector to release, under the Act, commercially valuable information such as that inherent in the LiMA system, the public sector would find it difficult to engage the expertise of commercial licensees (an expertise the public sector does not have) in deriving latent value from its information systems, to the detriment of the general taxpayer who would be deprived of the royalty revenue which might otherwise be realisable. For these reasons, we believe that it is right to maintain the exemption in relation to the specific information you seek.

 

The questions and options built into LiMA proggramme are exactly the same as those in the clerical form IB85 incapacity for work medical report form. This form was designed by the department of works and pensions.

 

The assisted text phrases that may be used to construct the medical history were drawn from many sources including the Incapacity benefit handbook medical text brooks examples of high quality personal capability assessment report and discussions with experienced healthcare professionals. They have been quality assured by panels of experienced HCPs and deemed appropriate for constructing good quality relevant clinical and functional histories and were agreed in construction with the DWP health and benefits division (formerly corporate medical; group)

 

The clinical examination results are structured according to the findings of evidence based medical research carried out by Atos Healthcare to determine the functional consequences of specific clinical signs. In other words the HCPs are expected to carry out a functional assessment of the affected systems not necessarily to carry out a full diagnostic clinical examination. This was agreed in consultation with the DWP health and benefits division.

 

LiMA provides health care professionals with a system of data entry that minimizes typing. This is known as assisted text control and allows information to be quickly and easily added to a report. Standard phrases consist of sentences that users can customise by altering variables. Their use is never mandated and the option of FREE TEXT is always available. Therefore the report that is produced should always be an accurate reflection of assessment.

 

To provide and example the phrase ' the condition started several months ago' is constructed by LiMA systems as Follows:

 

The user is presented with the standard phrase THE CONDITION STARTED the system will then prompt the user to select the appropriate option i.e. A FEW, SEVERAL, MANY or SINCE AGE or FROM BIRTH if the yser has selected FEW, SEVERAL, MANY the system will then prompt the user to select the appropriate option i.e. DAYS,WEEKS,MONTHS,YEARS

 

THere are an enormous number of customisable phrases in LiMA which are regularly updated, these are an integral part of the IT system and no seperate list is available, however as outlined above there are no constraints placed on the approved healthcare proffessional as to what information is recorded or how.

 

The system utilizes evidence based medical protocols which contain up to date medical knowledge relating to medical assessment techniques and in the assessment effects of medical conditions. Emphasis is always placed on the differing circumstances of each individual customer and the HCPs are required to justify their medical opinion contained on the medical report. This has contributed to an improvement in the quality and consistency of medical advice provided by approved he

althcare professionals. It also solves any potential problem of legibility of the medical report.

 

It then states I have the right to complain under the data protection act.

 

all I can say is B*LL S*** as usual!!!!

 

I can also advise that the Tribunal Judge has also ruled no access to the software.

 

1) The tribunal does not consider it appropriate to make a direction for the respondent to produce a working copy of the LiMA software used in thye creation of the IB85 report form. Such a direction would be oppressive, and out of proportion to the issues involved in the appeal. The First Tier Tribunal is in my view not the appropriate forum for a challenge of this nature.

 

2) The first tier tribunal will assess the evidence available to it . The IB85 report will be assessed in the usual way, and the appellants arguments will be taken into account.

 

Now that we have a reply to the letter of the B&W site is worth still having the letter available for download if there is no way the DWP will allow a copy of the software to be given???? As people are not going to get anywhere with this letter? If any of the benefit and works team would like copies of these letters please PM with an email address and I will scan them and forward them to you.

[patrickq1]

what atos do here in the uk was outlawed in several states in america they are bannedin several states as well

atos i have volumes right down to the parent co phillips electronics andsupprise supprise even experian and a major uk insurance company are part of them hence information out by the back door big brother undercover stuff huh

[patrickq1]

Recently successful responses - WhatDoTheyKnow

[kurvaface]

GMC | Making a complaint

 

Any Doctor that has been involved with signing off on ATOS' behalf in your case should be reported to the GMC.

 

Your case is a clear example of where they are doing "Harm" and for this reason you have an obligation to the rest of us to make sure this is reported. Not only is what they are doing potentially dangerous, it seems to be completely unethical.

 

If no Doctor is signing off their reports this needs to be investigated.

 

If they rely on this LIMA to spit out reports then this needs to be investigated too.

 

The GMC will invstigate.

Edited December 24, 2009 by kurvaface

[kurvaface]

The GMC is a good starting point.

 

ATOS are dispensing advice to various organisations based on the flimsiest of pseudomedical opinion. Because of the possible / probable harm resulting from this I would be suprised if the GMC didn't get involved.

 

The thing I don't understand is whether there are Doctors involved in the "ATOS" process, or is it just monkeys in-putting data to LIMA.

 

Either way, there is something for the GMC to get its teeth into.

 

BTW, what was the problem with your knee?

[postggj]

give me 5

 

ill dig out a copy from the surgeon

[postggj]

i hope this means some thing

double dutch to me

 

arthroscopic excision medail patella and open excision, thickened snapping lat retinacular

 

 

any chance in english

[Surfer01]

Seems we may have a rather over enthusiastic moderator as the same happened to me on one of my posts regarding mobile phone suppliers who do not have overseaas call centres????

[kurvaface]

The Lateral Retinaculum is the fibrous outerside of your knee joint and is integral to its stability and function. Sounds like you may have torn it.

 

There is no possible way that the "OT"s as they call them in conjunction with a piece of software could determine what this injury was, its severity or prognosis under any working conditions.

 

I would have deep concerns about any doctor signing off on this kind of evaluation and if there is no doctor involved in the evaluation process, the results can only be meaningless.