rossendales...help!

[qwerty12345]

iv just posted this hear now as i posted it in the wrong section earlier..

 

hi, i hope someone can help me and i hope im posting in the right area!

 

Today i had a visit from a rossendales bailiff over unpaid council tax.

The original amount was £183. When i first recieved a posted letter from them i arranged a payment agreement. Unfortunately as i have so many debts and agreements i missed one weeks payment- i realised the week after and paid it immediately- i then got a letter demanding payment in full- which i couldnt afford- and the main office refused to speak to me and said i had to ring the bailiffs number on the letter.

I rang the bailiff and he refused to let me pay by installments.

 

Today i had a bailiff at my door- he was quite pleasant(as pleasant as a bailiff can be!!)

The debt has risen to £301.41 plus £60 fees.

 

He wanted payment immediately and i told him there was no way and i could make a payment at the end of the month but there was no way that i could cover the whole amount.

He said this was not acceptable...i asked for a few days leeway and he only agreed to do this if i could tell him i would be able to pay in 48hrs time..i lied and said i could as otherwise he said he would have to seize my goods immediately.

 

I have since read some advice online...this told me that a bailiff is unable to force entry to my property as long as doors and windows are locked..is this right?

I understand they can seize my car as its in my name and fully paid for- im gonna park it round the corner from tomorrow.

 

I also spoke to the council with whom the council tax is owed and tried to arrange payments- the woman i spoke to was really helpful and said that she cant do anything at the moment until rossendales return it to them...she said they would then send me a commital asking me to contact them-she said if i ring them as soon as i get the letter they will be able to help me.

 

So...my plan is to ring the bailiffs number i have and try one last time to sort out a payment plan and explain to him that i will not be allowing them access to my property under any circumstances and that the only way they will get any money from me is through an agreement.

 

In the meantime i will ensure that my windows and doors are secured...and if they do manage to get through they will soon regret it with a 'friendly' welcome awaiting them from a german shepherd dog!!!

 

am i going about this the right way?

and as for the fees...are they excessive? this is the first visit by them to my house.

thankyou...i hope you can help me!!

[qwerty12345]

sorry ive just realised ive double posted by mistake...oops.

 

Another question...may seem a bit daft but ive just been reading through older threads and it seems that some bailiffs can be very rude or break rules, ie. putting a foot in a doorway or attempting to walk in if i leave the door for a second, say to get paperwork.

Im just wondering where i would stand if they tried to do this- i have 2 dogs who would defend their property from uninvited guests- if say a bailiff tried to stop me closing the door and in the process crossed my property boundary and was bitten- or hurt by the door shutting etc?

Its just something i want to be sure of as i always have one of my dogs sat behind me when i open the door to people.

 

sorry to keep adding more...

I am a lone parent and i read somewhere that they are not allowed to pursue lone parents?

Could really do with some advice as i said i would phone bailiff to confirm whether i am able to pay, and im not sure whether to or not(ring him that is)

Edited October 5, 2009 by qwerty12345
added more info

[sequenci]

Take a read of this:

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax

 

They can only apply a maximum of £42.50 in fees and charges if they have not gained entry to the property..

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The £60 fees are not allowed, only £24.50 so keep the bailiffs paperwork showing the £60 fee. The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.00 for a first visit and £18.00 for a second visit if one is made. No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

 

Phone the council, tell them their bailiff has been caught cheating with his fees and commits an offence under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 and ask they take the council tax debt back into town hall administration. Remind the council they are liable for their bailiffs when they are caught defrauding a member of the public. If the council is uncooperative or vexatious then quickly contact the local government ombudsman.

 

Never telephone a bailiff and get the case back into council administration

 

Council Tax (Enforcements) Department

Invincible Borough Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME & ANY REF]: Visit by your bailiff on [DATE]

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. We were unable to reach an amicable resolve and the bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became defensive and vexatious in nature. He made unrealistic demands of money which are way beyond my means and has been caught cheating with his fees by charging unlawful amounts contrary to regulations.

 

I now ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money and defrauding me with his fees.

 

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter. Please treat this letter as Stage 1.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as demanded by the bailiffs and I will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly installments with a final installment of £[AMOUNT]. This may seem a long time but it's all I can afford and allows me to pay future liabilities without falling into arrears. I confirm I am not refusing to pay this debt.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and deem properly served on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is now your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[NAME]

Enc 1st payment.

 

Make your house and car safe and hand a copy of this letter to the bailiff through a window if he returns.

 

 

 

To: [NAME OF BAILIFF]

 

BY HAND

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Bailiffs,

 

Re: Your visit to [1st LINE OF ADDRESS]

 

The council appears to have instructed you to recover council tax arrears/parking ticket from me however, however there is an irregularity with your fees and is contrary to legislation.

 

This letter gives you notice that you are being denied peaceful entry to my home or to levy goods contained within and I will not be signing anything for you. This notice revokes your eligibility to charge a Walking Possessions fee or other fee relating to the handling of goods.

 

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" to deny a bailiff entry to my property, if you suggest otherwise I will report you to the police under Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968 and you may receive a criminal record . Meanwhile please provide me with a written breakdown of your fees you have demanded and put it through the letterbox.

 

A bailiff who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 2 of the Act specifically describes a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss therefore, if no satisfactory refund is made to me within 24 hours from now I will automatically file a complaint to police under the 2006 Fraud Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. If you have charged VAT on unlawful fees then you may be reported for VAT fraud and your documents will be given in evidence. If you are certificated, a Form 4 will be filed.

 

This document has been passed to you by hand and a photograph of you standing outside reading it has just been taken as proof of delivery. I now ask that you quietly leave the property.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

 

 

[Guest Happy Contrails]

sorry to keep adding more...

I am a lone parent and i read somewhere that they are not allowed to pursue lone parents?

Could really do with some advice as i said i would phone bailiff to confirm whether i am able to pay, and im not sure whether to or not(ring him that is)

 

You may be a vulnerable person, which means: http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part10

 

Never phone the bailiff, stick this in the post and send it by email.

 

 

The Omnipotent Bailiff Co, Plc

Their Address 1

Their Address 2

Their Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Your visit to [1st LINE OF ADDRESS]

 

I write further to your visit by your bailiff and confirm I

am classed a vulnerable person for the purposes of civil enforcement in the meaning of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents directives.

 

Please see http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part10

 

Where a debtor falling into a vulnerable persons category is discovered by an enforcement agent, the matter shall be referred back to the court and no seizure of goods may proceed.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

[qwerty12345]

thanks for your help so far....

the debt has risen from £183 to £301.41 plus £60 fees...how can it rise from 183 to 301 in just one visit...obviously thats not fees as he said the 60 was fees.

he hand written the amount onto the letter..this is what he wrote in pen...'amount £301.41 plus fees' he verbally told me it was 60 fees.

 

also on the letter this is printed...

'I will reattend at your address at my convenience and may remove goods even in your absence. Should you wish to avoid this course of action, contact me immediately on the telephone number below to arrange prompt payment of your debt'

 

I take it by saying he will enter even in my absence means if i leave a window open etc?

[qwerty12345]

ive just got off the phone to my local council. I told them the charges are not allowed and were totally unfair.

The man on the phone did agree that they were being unfair but did look into it and said that the visit charges were made back in july- i told him that is not right as i only set up my agreement in august and at that point it was 183 and that their one and only visit was today.

He said the council will not be applying for the debt back from rossendales as they incurr charges doing so.

He, like the other lady, told me to sit it out and they would contact me when the debt is returned by rossendales.

[sequenci]

Hey there,

 

Bailiffs add fees like there is no tomorrow, and more often than not there is no provision for them. It is vital that you follow the advice given as they are in the wrong. Request a full breakdown of the debt from the bailiffs *in writing*

[qwerty12345]

ok, ive printed off and enveloped all the letters to send and will post first thing tomorrow.

 

One thing im wondering..my conservatory door to the outside has a broken lock on it at the moment so doesnt secure, there is nothing of value in the conservatory and i always lock the main door to the house which leads from the conservatory..where do i satnd if the bailiff gains access to my conservatory but not the rest of the house? would this be classed as him gaining peaceful entry?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

An interesting question:

 

A case in 2006, a bailiff entered a block of flats via a communal entrance and the bailiff considered himself having a right to break into the appartment. A police originally dismissed the complaint saying criminal damage is a civil matter then realised they had blooped when the police officer became the focus of an IPCC investigation for concealing a crime under a pretence it was a civil matter. Only then was the bailiff was arrested for breaking & entering, and that, I suspect was to save a police officers career.

 

I dont know if a conservatory is considered part of the dwellinghouse, but to be 100% sure you should try and make your house safe because I reckon the jury is out.

[sequenci]

I dont know if a conservatory is considered part of the dwellinghouse, but to be 100% sure you should try and make your house safe because I reckon the jury is out.

 

My gut feeling is that it would be. I'm not 100% certain though.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

My thoughts likewise, but I cant find a legal precendent whether a conservatory is considered dwellinghouse for the purposes of a bailiff gaining entry to it and enabling him to break & enter the building the conservatory is attached.

[sequenci]

My thoughts likewise, but I cant find a legal precendent whether a conservatory is considered dwellinghouse for the purposes of a bailiff gaining entry to it and enabling him to break & enter the building the conservatory is attached.

 

It would be the same principle if they gain entry to a house and discover a locked bedroom or something?!?

 

I'll do some research today me thinks

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Can you let me know how you get on.

 

Your findings might answer the age-old question - can a bailiff break open a door if he finds the porch unlocked.

[qwerty12345]

thanks everyone for helping so far, youve been a great help

 

right ive posted the letters...unable to email as cannot find an email address for them!

 

I have managed to sort of secure my conservatory door- but if it is pulled hard it will open- the conservatory is at the back and they will have to scale a 6ft locked gate and wall to get into the garden.

 

It is really worrying me that they will be able to force entry after getting into the conservatory, one being that obviously i dont want my stuff taking, and two that if they enter my dog will attack them-i have been trying to search the net for legal advice on the matter but cant find any anywhere..the only info i can find is if someone illegally enters, eg. a burglar..but then the bailiff would have a legal right to enter?

think my head is going to explode!!!!

[sequenci]

thanks everyone for helping so far, youve been a great help

 

right ive posted the letters...unable to email as cannot find an email address for them!

 

I have managed to sort of secure my conservatory door- but if it is pulled hard it will open- the conservatory is at the back and they will have to scale a 6ft locked gate and wall to get into the garden.

 

It is really worrying me that they will be able to force entry after getting into the conservatory, one being that obviously i dont want my stuff taking, and two that if they enter my dog will attack them-i have been trying to search the net for legal advice on the matter but cant find any anywhere..the only info i can find is if someone illegally enters, eg. a burglar..but then the bailiff would have a legal right to enter?

think my head is going to explode!!!!

 

I appreciate your concerns, I whole-heartedly suggest that you get some free advice from national debtline on 0808 808 4000 - you'll feel better after the call i guarantee.

[qwerty12345]

i cant phone them just yet, but will do later.

As for the dog side- it just goes to show how complicated it is..my friends is a policeman and i have asked him and he doesnt have a clue so is going to look into it for me.

 

I have sent the vulnerable persons letter to rossendales office and have a copy here ready to hand to bailiff if he turns up...which wont be at least til tomorrow as thats how long i have to pay.

what does it actually stop them doing though? for instance when they recieve that can they still chase me for the debt? can they levy things such as my car? or will they just return it to the council?

 

also- last month i paid off another ct debt in full (around £500 mark, will find the exact figures shortly)

but this had risen loads in charges even though they had never been in my house or removed anything- is there anyway i can get the fees that they obviously had no right to charge back? this was with rossendales again.

 

sorry about all the questions!

[cameraboy]

An interesting question:

 

A case in 2006, a bailiff entered a block of flats via a communal entrance and the bailiff considered himself having a right to break into the appartment. A police originally dismissed the complaint saying criminal damage is a civil matter then realised they had blooped when the police officer became the focus of an IPCC investigation for concealing a crime under a pretence it was a civil matter. Only then was the bailiff was arrested for breaking & entering, and that, I suspect was to save a police officers career.

 

I dont know if a conservatory is considered part of the dwellinghouse, but to be 100% sure you should try and make your house safe because I reckon the jury is out.

 

Happy Contrails - I'm interested in the case you describe above -could be of great help to me, can you give me a link to read the full case if you have it or more details to find it?

 

thx

[Guest Happy Contrails]

It was a criminal investigation, not a published court case.