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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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Court Summons


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A couple of months ago I boarded a train at an unmanned station that does not have a ticket machine. Below is a letter that I have sent to both the Network provider & the courts explaining the situation.

--------------------

On the day in question my wife was giving me a lift to my work in Manchester. The traffic was particularly heavy that day. As we were passing a station I decided to catch a train for the remainder of the journey to avoid being late for work.

There was already a train in the station so I boarded and immediately went in search of the conductor. Unfortunately, the conductor’s ticket machine was not working. This was announced over the train’s tanoy system (The Network provider have since verified that the machine was indeed not working on this particular day). It was suggested that passengers requiring tickets should purchase them on arrival at Piccadilly Station.

In the rush, I had not paid attention to the name of the station where I had boarded and being in an area that is unfamiliar to me, I was unsure. Believing it to be Station A, on arrival at Piccadilly station I purchased a ticket from Station A to Piccadilly station.

Having purchased the ticket I was directed to speak to another member of staff who informed me that all passengers boarding at Station A would have been issued with a specific ticket. I explained that I was unsure as to which station I had boarded, that I believed it to be Station A, but if it wasn’t Station A then it would have been one of its neighbouring stations. I apologised for my mistake and offered to pay the additional fare of £1.20. The member of staff asked for my contact details, which I immediately gave and verified by producing my passport. He then went on to explain that I would receive a letter in due course.

I received a letter sometime later asking me to explain what had happened, to which I responded immediately. I confirmed all of the details as above, which since reading the witness statements contained in the summons letter, confirm the events.

I would like to express my deep regret that my lack of attention on this particular day may result in a criminal record. I am 32 years old with no previous convictions. I am deeply embarrassed by the whole situation and would like to apologise to all parties involved for this mistake.

------------------------

In response to the above letter I now have a court date arranged to answer the following charge;

"Did travel on a Railway without having previously paid the fare and intent to avoid payment thereof"

My questions are - why am I being dragged through the courts for making a genuine mistake? and, is there anyway that they can charge me with this?

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In short the answer is Yes, the rail company can, and usually do, proceed to prosecution in such cases.

 

Section 5.1 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) makes clear that

 

'Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid or, pay his fare for the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in the case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.'

 

Now you say that on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly you were sold a ticket from the station that you said you had come from and paid the fare for the journey that you claimed to have made.

 

This provides the Inspector with the evidence that you offered a fare from that particular station, but you had in fact travelled from farther afield.

 

You say that you were told that 'all passengers boarding at the station' you claimed to have travelled from 'would have a specific ticket.'

 

This suggests that there were facilities to buy a ticket at the station you claimed to have travelled from and that the team were carrying out a special exercise targeting those people who board trains at one station without paying and then offer a lesser fare from a closer station to their destination.

 

One of the oldest fiddles in the book and amongst the easiest to prove.

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Many thanks for the response.

I am however pleading not guilty and am going to have rely on the court believing that I have simply made an honest mistake.

Having since been to the station in question - it was the one prior to where I paid for a ticket, and does not have a ticket machine.

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To be honest, your reason's for not buying the right ticket are one of the oldest excuses in the book- not saying that you didn't make a genuine mistake, but there are hundreds of instances of this on the network every day. Good luck by pleading not guilty but you'll be very lucky to get off.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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Yes, my thoughts too and I have to say that the prosecutor should be well versed in handling such cases because, as an excuse, it is so common.

 

Setting aside your assertion that you have made a genuine mistake, it is clear that the TOC do not accept that otherwise they would not have issued a Summons.

 

I looked at this paragraph for a start and will not suggest the questions that they are likely to raise, but this quote from the OP is a starting point for them:

 

"There was already a train in the station so I boarded and immediately went in search of the conductor. Unfortunately, the conductor’s ticket machine was not working."

 

I assume that you will be relying on putting that at least partially as an element in your defence?

 

This little piece would beg me to ask a few questions if I were the prosecutor and I am sure that a statement will be sought from the conductor who will undoubtedly be called as a witness at your trial, along with the reporting Inspector and the one who issued the ticket confirming your offer of a short fare on arrival.

 

As RPI said, good luck with your plea.

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"did travel on a railway without having previously paid the fare of £1:20 and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

 

Contrary to S.5 (3) (A) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the Transport Act 1962 and Section 18 of the British Railways Act 1977.

 

Again, I'm hoping that a court will see that there was no intent to avoid the fare, that I have indeed made an honest mistake. I could understand the charge if there was a means of purchasing a ticket at the station where I boarded, or if the conductors machine was working on that particular day and I didn't buy a ticket during the journey (they have since checked and have confirmed that it was not working).

 

Am really starting to worry now.

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Am I right in thinking that they have to prove that there was intent on my part to avoid payment of the additional £1:20?

yes, but unfortunately your actions proved the intent.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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Cant you get a copy of the CCTV to prove what station you got on -this should be easy as you will know the date and time - look on www.ico.gov.uk and see how to get a copy - get them to prove what station u got on.

 

same as SAR

 

I think the most important point is perhaps being missed here. Proving where the traveller got on isn't in doubt.

 

The OP says he got on at Station A and has evidence that he did not pay the fare of £2.40 because there were no facilities, but, on arrival at his destination he then offered the lesser fare of £1.20 from Station B.

 

The first Inspector accepted the fare that he was offered by the OP, but of course it appears from the OP's posting that the Inspectors were taking part in a special exercise to target exactly this kind of known and common fraud. The 'short-offer'. These kind of exercises are regularly carried out to target travellers offering from stations where these small fares are commonly paid on arrival.

 

The Inspector issuing the ticket has confirmed the short offer that was made by the traveller by issuing the ticket that he was asked to issue.

 

Because the Inspectors knew that full pre-purchase facilities were available at the station that the traveller claimed to have travelled from, they then have the evidence of the avoidance of a fare or, part of a fare. I suggest that this may well be because other Inspectors may have been deployed at the station where the traveller claimed to have travelled from with the express purpose of ensuring that all persons joining trains there were in possession of valid tickets.

 

The fact that there wasn't a ticket machine at station A and the faulty machine on the train are not disputed by either side, but these do not alter the fact that the short offer was made. I suggest that the evidence to be given by the conductor who was on the train will be singularly important to the Magistrates in deciding who they believe as to whether this was accidental or not.

 

The fact that the correct fare has not been paid is not in doubt, nor is it denied. What the OP had an obligation to do on arrival is to offer the correct fare for journey from station A where he had joined the train.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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I am relying on the following statement - "I explained that I was unsure as to which station I had boarded, that I believed it to be Station A, but if it wasn’t Station A then it would have been one of its neighbouring stations." Surely this proves that there was no intent on my part to avoid the fare, that I had just made a mistake.

However, am I able to settle out of court? If so, what is the best way to go about this?

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Well, as I said, if I were the prosecutor in this case I would be asking a number of questions before the Court that might clarify the decision in the minds of the Magistrates.

 

If you wish to do so, you may write to the prosecutor's office asking whether the rail company is prepared to accept an out of Court settlement and offer to pay the unpaid fare and the reasonable costs incurred by the rail company as a result of your actions.

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