outrage over new bank charges

[Bookworm]

Ok, I'll rephrase that:

 

PS: How can it be "clear-cut anti-British discrimination", when a proportion of born and bred Brits are in fact Muslim?

 

Sorry, Noom, I was misled by the media who led me to believe that we were being completely swamped by them lot, so that I thought the % was a lot higher. ;-)

[noomill060]

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

I dont know why you should agree, bookie- the same thing happened in France.

 

Cultured Romanised Gauls overun and enslaved by equally hairy arrised Germanic Goths, Vandals, Franks and Vikings who eventually settled down and started calling themselves French and illegally invading poor old Blighty and then eventually grabbing great lumps of Africa, America and south-east Asia- just like the Brits!

 

Pot, kettle and black springs to mind...

[noomill060]

Yes, I agree bookie, however the Muslims do bring a lot of the nonsense upon themselves by their self-righteous vociferousness.

 

For just 3% of the population, they dont half make a lot of noise.

[natalie]

In fact it was the Daily Mail who published the article first(yesterday) and the BNP that took a BNP view to it this morning. Not the other way round.

 

 

Lol well no surprises there then! Who ever would have thought that the Daily Mail would publish something like this... although... did they manage to get hoodies and "paedo's" into the story anywhere?

[noomill060]

Why- are Lloyds Banking Group now offering bank accounts to cater for the specialised needs of hoodies and paedophiles?

[Bookworm]

I dont know why you should agree, bookie- the same thing happened in France.

 

Cultured Romanised Gauls overun and enslaved by equally hairy arrised Germanic Goths, Vandals, Franks and Vikings who eventually settled down and started calling themselves French and illegally invading poor old Blighty and then eventually grabbing great lumps of Africa, America and south-east Asia- just like the Brits!

 

Pot, kettle and black springs to mind...

I know that, but you don't see me going on about the modern invasion of France, do you?

 

I agree with Aequitas with the absurdity of the hysteria and double-standards which operate in Britain as illustrated by the article. Feel free to say that the same double standards operate in France, I would agree with you too.

 

I think you kind of missed what it was I was agreeing with Aequitas about. ;-)

[Bookworm]

Why- are Lloyds Banking Group now offering bank accounts to cater for the specialised needs of hoodies and paedophiles?

I would have to put a lot of "allegedly" in there to answer that question without getting CAGbotted, so I won't even try, lol.

[yourbank]

Why- are Lloyds Banking Group now offering bank accounts to cater for the specialised needs of hoodies and paedophiles?

I can confirm they are not, but if they did then the Daily Mail would publish it as it would be in the public interest to know.

[yourbank]

I would have to put a lot of "allegedly" in there to answer that question without getting CAGbotted, so I won't even try, lol.

the use of the word "allegedly" does not remove the use of the word "libelous" or "potentially libelous". I did some research ages ago on the topic

[noomill060]

There is bound to be a back lash if the whole thing is misreported and distorted using weasel words that are not actually racist, but are intended to persuade people that the Great British Way of Life is under threat from those who are not really proper Britons and cannot be trusted to support the right side in a cricket match.

 

Of course if we go back some 1500 years it was quite different. Then you ran a real risk of being dismembered by some very violent illegal immigrants. Indeed, these illegal immigrants, who had been kept at bay when we were very sensibly governed by Italians under whose rule we enjoyed 400 years of peace and prosperity, ended up swamping the country with their alien culture and language. They drove the peace loving and cultured inhabitants into the western fringes. Eventually these illegal immigrants settled down and called themselves the English. Ever since they have been complaining about being swamped by alien culture and language whilst at the same time invading other countries and swamping them with their alien culture and language.

 

We cant go back 1500 years though and 'tis a specious argument you make.

 

In that 1500 years the population of these islands, largely but not exclusively those ancestors of the Saxons (who were actually originally invited in by the Romano- Brits as mercenaries) turned a poverty stricken backwater of the post-Roman world into the greatest power the world had ever seen, eclipsing even the majesty of Imperial Roman herself.

 

(Oh yeah and dragged the rest of the world out of the Dark Ages and invented the modern world along the way.)

 

Of course we are the descendents of savage invaders who took this land by the sword.

 

(The word "Welsh" derives from and is interchangable with the Saxon word for "slave")

 

We made it ours by right of conquest, not by a dribble of whining illegal immigrants hiding under 40 foot lorries.

 

(I say "we", but if I had been around in those days, I would have been one of those attempting to keep safely out of the way, living in a monastary making copies of the Bible into beautifully illustrated illiminated gospels in the hope that eventually some of the contents and the message contained therein this would rub off on the heathen invaders!)

Edited August 23, 2009 by noomill060

[natalie]

I dont understand the issue tbh.. its a non-story.....

 

Every bank has various account options...

current account

premier current account

superduper current account

superduper current account with knobs on

 

each with various "advantages". So this one is called the Islamic account. It has been hyped up by the likes of the Daily Wail to create an issue which fits in with their agenda... scaremongering and making their readers feel as though a certain minority (usually asylum seekers, but in this case muslims) are being treated better than they are.

[noomill060]

I agree, nat.

 

In essence, its simply the type of current account I had years ago.

 

Cheque book but no overdraft facilities.

 

If I wrote a cheque without the funds to cover it, it just bounced.

[noomill060]

By calling it an "Islamic account", Lloyds are simply trying to appeal to our Muslim friends.

 

(When I was at school -(1970s/80s) - followers of the prophet Mohammed were called Moslems- when did the English spelling of this Arabic word change?)

[Bookworm]

It hasn't as such, both words are still widely used, but "muslim" is closer pronunciation-wise. There is also a theory that "moslem" is offensive to some, but have seen no confirmation of this one way or another and considering the word is different in other languages, I don't really think it is significant.

[Conniff]

I does say that they do not charge interest on these accounts, but fees. Seems to me the same thing just spelt differently to get around an envisaged problem.

[yourbank]

By calling it an "Islamic account", Lloyds are simply trying to appeal to our Muslim friends.

 

(When I was at school -(1970s/80s) - followers of the prophet Mohammed were called Moslems- when did the English spelling of this Arabic word change?)

 

It's called Islamic Banking because it complies with Shariah law. HSBC offer Islamic Banking as welll

Amanah Bank Account: HSBC Bank UK

 

RBS Group do not.

Lloyds do

Barclays do not

HSBC do.

And there are other smaller banks that do offer this service.

[noomill060]

Do the bankers consent to having their right hands cut off in the event that they make an unlawful debit?

[noomill060]

Bookie- does France take offence by the English pronounciation of the French capital? (Par-ris as opposed to Par-ree)

 

No one in the English speaking world takes exception to the French pronounciation of the UK's capital - Londres, though I would be interested in the reason why the French felt the need to invent a different word for it.

 

Muslim/Moslem and offence taken.

 

This is an excellent example of the rather "precious" attitude often exhibited by members of this faith. It is this pandering to their sensitivities which rubs a lot of us up the wrong way.

 

Not so long ago they were refered to as Mohamedans and Musselman. My grandfather (Army officer in India in the last years of the Raj) refered to them thus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It hasn't as such, both words are still widely used, but "muslim" is closer pronunciation-wise. There is also a theory that "moslem" is offensive to some, but have seen no confirmation of this one way or another and considering the word is different in other languages, I don't really think it is significant.

[Bookworm]

Bookie- does France take offence by the English pronounciation of the French capital? (Par-ris as opposed to Par-ree)

 

No one in the English speaking world takes exception to the French pronounciation of the UK's capital - Londres, though I would be interested in the reason why the French felt the need to invent a different word for it.

They didn't "feel" any need. Both pronunciations derive from the latin "Londinium". That's also the way it is pronounced in Italian and Spanish. It is in fact more likely, seeing the latin origin, that it is the local residents which mangled its "correct" pronunciation through the centuries.

Muslim/Moslem and offence taken.

As I said, there is no evidence that this is the case. It is highly likely that it is merely a pronunciation thing, for accuracy and nothing to do with any offence, unless of course the BNP can make it so, in which case let's spread a bit more venom.

This is an excellent example of the rather "precious" attitude often exhibited by members of this faith. It is this pandering to their sensitivities which rubs a lot of us up the wrong way.

It's funny, because most of the incidents which I have seen were NOT in fact caused by any "precious" attitude, but by over-scared PC public servants who would go to far for fear of offending anyone, even when no-one had complained in the first place.

Not so long ago they were refered to as Mohamedans and Musselman. My grandfather (Army officer in India in the last years of the Raj) refered to them thus.

"musselman" will be the mis-pronunciation of the French "musulman". All it means is Muslim and nothing else. As for Mohamedans, it can be an issue, simply because it implies that they would worship Muhamad (the Prophet) instead of Allah (God). You could laugh at that and think that's being "precious" too, but having studied the history of people who would torture and slaughter one another because some believed in one true God, some in a holy Trinity, some in reading their sacred books, in Latin and some in English, etc, etc... I consider none of us has the right to look down on anyone else on the grounds of belief.

 

Me, as a firm agnostic, I don't believe in much except that if we were a bit more tolerant of others' foibles and less indulgent of our own, this Earth may be a much better place to live on.

 

Back to the main subject of this thread: So banks offer different accounts to different people? Wow, what a scoop. Not. Why should it bother anyone, I do not know. No-one is stopping anyone from opening one of those accounts, if they can square their conscience with the other things that go with Sharia law.

 

Bottom line, as I, YourBank, Natalie and others have said, is that it is a non-story, whipped into a frenzy for people who are far too eager to read the first lines and not delve into the rest.

[noomill060]

London's name of course derives from Londinium, which is a derivation of Llyn Dynn (The Black Pool) - the name of the original Celtic village on the north bank of the River Thames, where the Romans decided to make their provincial capital.

 

Incidently, Dublin (Dubh Linn in Irish) also means "The Black Pool"

 

"I consider none of us has the right to look down on anyone else on the grounds of belief."

 

I consider those of us who have grown intellectually and dont feel the need for a magic invisible friend, have every right feel morally superior and to look down our collective nose at superstitous and ignorant bigots.

[natalie]

 

"I consider none of us has the right to look down on anyone else on the grounds of belief."

 

I consider those of us who have grown intellectually and dont feel the need for a magic invisible friend, have every right feel morally superior and to look down our collective nose at superstitous and ignorant bigots.

 

Whilst I agree with you on the belief side of things,I dont feel "morally superior". People can believe what they like, as long as they dont try and shove it down my throat or force their views on me and I dont think its Muslims who take the award for that one.

[Bookworm]

I consider those of us who have grown intellectually and dont feel the need for a magic invisible friend, have every right feel morally superior and to look down our collective nose at superstitous and ignorant bigots.

This is where we differ. Whatever helps you get through the day, I say. Everyone needs a crutch of some kind. For them, it's their god(s), for others, it's something else. As far as I am concerned, as long as they don't try to ram their religion down my throat, I won't ram my lack of belief down theirs. ;-)

[Aequitas]

It hasn't as such, both words are still widely used, but "muslim" is closer pronunciation-wise. There is also a theory that "moslem" is offensive to some, but have seen no confirmation of this one way or another and considering the word is different in other languages, I don't really think it is significant.

 

The difference is easily explained. It depends on whether you are using a transliteration or a transcription. A transliteration aims to represent the letters of one alphabet with the letters of another alphabet on a consistent basis so that a given letter x in alphabet A is always represented by a given letter y in alphabet B and y is only used to represent x. A transcription aims to indicate how words are pronounced.

 

Classical Arabic only had six vowel sounds: long and short varieties of /a/, /i/ and /u/ and the alphabet was designed accordingly. The long vowels were represented (or to be more accurate hinted at) by full letters and the short vowels, if indicated at all, by small signs above or below the consonants. Modern Standard Arabic uses the same alphabet as Classical Arabic and accordingly the full range of vowel sounds of Modern Standard Arabic (which may vary from place to place) cannot accurately be represented by the script. (English has the same problem, e.g. the in "father" is not pronounced the same as the in "fat".)

 

"Muslim" is therefore a transliteration that indicates how the word is written in the Arabic alphabet, whilst "moslem" is an attempt to indicate how many (if not necessarily all) Arabic speakers pronounce the word. From one point of view neither is "correct" - the way to write the word is مسلم‎ .

[noomill060]

"As far as I am concerned, as long as they don't try to ram their religion down my throat, I won't ram my lack of belief down theirs."

 

I approach this matter from a different angle, while naturally asserting the right of others to any philosophy they wish to persue, and intellectually, Islam does have a lot to recomend it- it did absorb and build on much from the ancient cultures it surplanted in the Near East such as Greek mathematics and Roman engineering and encouraged intellectualism when such things in Western Europe had been swept away by the barbarian migrations.

 

However, as Europe recovered over the following millenium, Islam stagnated and couldnt make the leap out of the Middle Ages as happened in Europe in general and in England in particular - which finally grew into the Industrial Revolution and the ability to separate myth/magic and religion from science and moral philosophy.

 

For example- the Libyan Pan-Am bomber would have met a rapid and sticky end if convicted of this offence in his own country.

 

Here, we release him to spend his last days with his family.

 

In doing so, we show that we are "better" than *them*

 

*Them* includes the American bible bashers who are outraged at his release and would love to see him die alone and in agony in a Scottish prison

 

For "better" read morally superior.

[noomill060]

I understand that in the Persian langauge. the pronouciation is closer to "Moslem" than "Muslim"

 

The word simply means "One who submits to God"

 

Instead of using a transliteration into English, why not simply translate the meaning into the equivilant word in English.

 

"The Pious Believers" or God Fearers.

 

I dont there is a single English word meaning "One who submits to God"

 

This is an example of an unbridgable divide between Islam and modern secular post-Christian societies.

 

The word "submit" presents a problem- we dont submit to God, and probably never really did.

 

Our relationship with the concept of "magic invisible friend* was that of a friendly loving father, not as some fearful, demonic entity to cower from.

 

This was the pre-Christian postion - European pagans had no concept of loving their gods- they were scared ****less of them.

 

Can you think of a single English word which encapsulates the meaning of "One who submits to God"