Can you 'ave a butchers at this?

[greatburdon]

Thanks for your continued posts Sunflower, i think your draft on post #24 is the track I will go down.

 

In effect it will be let me see the whole document or shut up.

Will see what response I get.

 

GB

[sunflower99]

Thanks for your continued posts Sunflower, i think your draft on post #24 is the track I will go down.

 

In effect it will be let me see the whole document or shut up.

Will see what response I get.

 

GB

Yes! A good idea! and cuts to the chase a bit!:DI am going down that road with Barclayshark at moment! but they just send me unsigned terms and conditions at moment ! Which is a bit frustrating!They doing it with all their fans!

[greatburdon]

Had similar from HSBC i.e. only blank forms and T & C's, sent them a request under CPR to try and focus their minds ... doubt it will but time will tell. Just trying to get rid of the pressure but it seems to be mounting not diminishing.

 

GB

[greatburdon]

Hi again ... Have been going through the draft at post #24 and checking the points raised against my 'application form'.

 

Point 1 states that there is the missing title Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. At the head of my application it is worded Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.....So it would appear to me that this point is not valid.

 

Point 2.. prescribed terms .. Not sure if these are in my application/agreement.

 

Point 3 .. This seems to be the challengable point i.e. prove that this is one document.

 

Point 4 ... Does not seem relevant as I can read the document.

 

So does it boil down to the fact that it may not be one document and I need to re-draft just on this point?

 

greatburdon

[sunflower99]

Hi again ... Have been going through the draft at post #24 and checking the points raised against my 'application form'.

 

Point 1 states that there is the missing title Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. At the head of my application it is worded Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.....So it would appear to me that this point is not valid.

 

Point 2.. prescribed terms .. Not sure if these are in my application/agreement.

 

Point 3 .. This seems to be the challengable point i.e. prove that this is one document.

 

Point 4 ... Does not seem relevant as I can read the document.

 

So does it boil down to the fact that it may not be one document and I need to re-draft just on this point?

 

greatburdon

Hi greatburdon

I just looked at your agreement and apart from the legibility issue which you can leave out if you can read it ! My personal opinion is all the points raised in that letter apply to your alleged cca as much as they do to my alleged cca! and you can raise those points in your letter as well!

firstly point one applies to you as well as i notice that as your agreement is a credit card agreement they got heading describing precise nature of your agreement wrong!The agreement should read Credit card agreement if it is a credit card agreement!Your alleged cca heading reads just credit agreement and missed out the word Card! on your front application form page!

The consumer credit agreements Regulations schedule 1 state- A heading in the prescribed form giving the nature of agreement so if it is a card agreement it should read Credit Card Agreement regulated by the consumer act 1974 Your title would have been right if it had been a fixed loan amount such as a bank loan then just credit agreement would have been right but yours is a credit Card agreement if you get my drift!

[sunflower99]

Alright the above error they made can be enforced under s65 by a court but it still means that your alleged agreement is not correcly executed on that point alone! and will cause them a bit of a headache! but put that together with more serious breaches of agreement regulations that possibly the prescribed terms probably not on reverse of document or same document! which would under s127 of 1974 consumer Credit Act render it entirely legaly unenforceable by a court if it is a pre 2007 alleged agreement and can not be enforced under s65 of act:D if you get a judge who know the law and you can put in a strong defence on this should it procceed to litigation,By pointing out wrong heading it is helping to press the point even more home that they have not got a correctly executed agreement and puts more fuel on the fire in my opinion! The more defects you point out the better in my opinion!

[sunflower99]

1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, a heading in one of the following forms of words--

 

(a) "Hire Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

(b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

© "Fixed Sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or

 

(d) "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974",as the case may require.

 

(2) If none of the headings in 1(a) to (d) above are applicable a heading in the following form of words--

 

"Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

(3) Where the document and a pawn-receipt are combined, the words ", and Pawn Receipt," shall be inserted in the heading after the word

"Agreement".

 

(4) Where the document embodies an agreement of which at least one part is a credit agreement not regulated by the Act, the word "partly" shall be inserted before "regulated" unless the regulated and unregulated parts of the agreement are clearly separate.

 

(5) Where the credit is being secured on land the words "secured on" followed by the address of the land shall be inserted at the end of the

heading.

[greatburdon]

Thanks again for your input sunflower. I understand all the points you have made and will draft the letter accordingly.

 

Going to wait a while before I respond (unless pushed by them). Have other issues as a priority so they can swivel.

 

Hope you and hubby are well, don't let the bar stewards grind you down.

 

greatburdon

[sunflower99]

Hi Greatburdon

.i posted up part of the law in last post that explains issue in more detail!

[sunflower99]

Also you can say they missing prescribed terms as in the letter you are calling their bluff so to speak as if the application form does not have that reverse;) it does not contain prescribed terms in origiinal signed document!

[greatburdon]

Thanks for that sunflower it is most helpful.

 

Will be sending the 'can I visit you' letter and see what response I get.

 

gb

[sunflower99]

i must admit i did find the heading issue a bit confusing when i was a newbie to cag and did not register immediatly the crucial point that the word card is missing,Crapital one made me laugh as they clearly had no idea and kept saying they had compplied by descrbing my alleged agreement as a credit agreement and seemed to miss the point i had made about the word Card being missing from it:D

[sunflower99]

Thanks for that sunflower it is most helpful.

 

Will be sending the 'can I visit you' letter and see what response I get.

 

gb

Great! That will show them you know your rights !

[greatburdon]

CARD is my favourite word for today. ;-)

 

Are you still battling with Crapital?

 

 

gb

[sunflower99]

Well i am still officially in dispute with them but since sending a few letters out and having loads of phonecalls and some threatograms from them and their inhouse collection firm debitarse they seem to have gone quiet for the moment and not heard anything since January!

[greatburdon]

Received this morning a letter from Optima (first time on the scene) posted below, threatening allsorts..charging orders, legal proceedings, extra costs blah blah. They also kindly printed an I & E form on the back.

 

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/Optima.jpg

 

 

Do I just send a letter along the lines of this account is in dispute with Abbey, I do not believe the application form/agreement to be enforceable, so bog off?

 

I have still not responded to the production of the agreement by Abbey so will now deal with what is considered to be ommissions/errors in the agreement. (If I can get my head round what they are)

 

greatburdon

[sunflower99]

Did you send mbna that letter?

[sunflower99]

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

 

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with the **original creditor/DCA** and has been since DATE 2007.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the CCA 74.

 

As **original creditor/DCA** are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, Subject Access request and have also breached s10 Data Protection Act request , I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

 

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the **original creditor/DCA** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as **New DCA** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If **New DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

BLAH

[djc1]

subbing

[djc1]

Hi greatburdon,

sorry i will try not to hijack your thread, I just got my CCA back and its identical to yours so all i have read here is good news for me. Just some thoughts have you double checked your application form ? on mine they have my date of birth wrong and the first letter of the name in the For Your Security bit on the form, dont know if that would count for any thing but worth a double check.

Also wondering if you got an Frequently Asked Questions form back with your CCA ?

Because after reading the points that sunflower 99 makes about the word card then looking at the FAQ's where they say,

 

1. What is the "copy executed agreement" you have sent me ?

 

We have sent you a copy of the credit agreement that you signed. Depending on how you applied (for example if you applied by post) this might be on the same page as the application form you filled out.

 

Iam starting to think that you could use this by highlighting the fact they are talking about some other agreement and not an alleged credit card agreement.

Hope that makes sense.

[sunflower99]

Hi djc1

Welcome to the Cag MBNA fan club! MBNA are very slippery characters! LOL as i am sure you have found out since joining CAG!When did you take your MBNA card out.? A lot of their ones before 2005 i think are unenforceable plus there is a belirf on ths site that many of them got shreeded:D Which will give them a headache in court as they can be complelled to bring in original agreement if it gets to court room.

[djc1]

Hi sunflower 99,

Yes from what i have read MBNA, do seem to be the worst and i think I'am in for the long haul with them. I have two cards MBNA platinum & MBNA/Abbey, and as if thats wasnt enough a Abbey loan.

The Abbey card is from late 2001, the MBNA before that.

[sunflower99]

Hi sunflower 99,

Yes from what i have read MBNA, do seem to be the worst and i think I'am in for the long haul with them. I have two cards MBNA platinum & MBNA/Abbey, and as if thats wasnt enough a Abbey loan.

The Abbey card is from late 2001, the MBNA before that.

Hi Djc!

Gret news that they are very early ones! probably been completly shreeded and trashed then:D

[greatburdon]

Its only me!!

 

Had a letter from Abbey, have posted it here. post #36:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/204323-letter-vice-president-abbey-2.html

 

Would welcome any comments, at the mo I'm inclined to just sit tight and wait for the next threat. They obviously believe they have now complied and I am still wondering if the 'application/agreement' is enforceable.

 

greatburdon

[sunflower99]

Hi GreatBurden

I agree with you very unlikely that what they are impyng is on that short scrap of paper is on reverse of your application form[i would eat my hat if an agreement from 2001 was correctly executed and actually had those terms on revese! LOL,I believe yours like main is just an application form and those ts and cs not actually on reverse,MBNA are being very crafty as they are implying but not actually saying that page is reverse just by seending it all together,Also someone had it confirmed by MBNA that all the early original agreements were shredded and put on microfilch for customer protection and security!! LOL not possibly the fact that they were trying to save on storage space and none of those agreements were properly executed or legally enforceable in first place!