Refund from ebay seller

[crantinope]

Hi everyone,

I recently won a 2nd hand bike on ebay in an auction (paid £497+£20 postage), was going to pay by paypal as it was an option in the listing but when i received the invoice i was asked for a cheque. I asked to pay by bank transfer or cash on collection, but the seller would only accept a cheque only then telling me it wasn't his ebay account but his mates and he didn't have paypal, so i agreed and sent him a cheque. When the bike arrived it was wrapped in plastic and nylon sacking, totally inappropriate for sending a bike in my opinion, and the fork was sticking out. Unfortunately I couldn't refuse the delivery there and then, because it was left with a neighbour who signed to accept receipt, but no inspection (why would they???). On opening it up, i discovered the pedal was crushed, and the carbon forks were bent and there was a dent in the frame. I rang the seller straight away and told him i was not happy, and he said he will talk to the courier company about it. I have emailed him since and told him that i would like to be refunded, and although although he said he will talk to the courier company, it was unsuitably packed and they will tell him to take a hike. I would like a REFUND and have promised to send the bike back correctly boxed (in a bike box from my local bike shop, it doesn't take much effort does it?) for transit. In addition to this, the bike was described as "MINT" and "VERY WELL LOOKED AFTER" AND "WON'T FIND A BETTER EXAMPLE" in the ad but is suffering from mild corrosion, a jammed seatpost in frame, a bent brake disc and is generally in very average condition and not at all as described. I realise it is difficult with it not being his ebay account so i don't feel i can take it through the normal ebay complaints channel if he refuses, but I am correct in my request for a refund aren't I?. Cheers..Nick p.s bike delivered 25/06, refund requested 26/06, he will talk to courier 29/06. How long should I give it, and is there anything I definitely need to have done in writing/by phone in a particular timeframe to protect myself :?

[HSBCrusher]

you are covered by the distance selling regs on this. The item arrived damaged, and not as described. You have cancelled the order.

 

The seller must refund your money within 30 days of you cancelling the agreement.... if they don't write to them demanding a refund. Give them 14 days. If that doesn't get results hit them with another letter, a letter before action. Give them 14 days more, then hit them with a court claim. Its really easy to do on moneyclaim online (link in my signature) and your fees are claimable off the seller.

 

It is very likely that your seller will refund without heavy hobnail boots though, most sellers do. If they know you know your rights things might go a little easier ;-)

Edited June 29, 2009 by HSBCrusher
changed my mind on this one ;-)

[Darwin]

Did you win the bike in an auction or a buy it now item , as far as I am aware the distance selling act doesnt cover auctions.

[crantinope]

Yes it was won in an auction, not BIN, but I presume because of the damage in transit, i'm well within my rights to claim a refund, regardless of the item not living up to it's description on delivery?

I just wanted to make sure i am correct in (politely) asking for my money back + delivery costs, and do I pay for the return of the bike out of my own pocket?...cheers...Nick :?

[gyzmo]

Your claim would be for misdescription, since that is the only thing you can claim for under Sale of goods legislation.

 

With regards to the DSRs, there are two problems.

 

Auctions are not covered. However, there has been a discussion as to whether ebay is an auction or not, which, in my opinion, has not quite been resolved.

 

Further, I presume the seller was not acting in the course of a business or profession. The DSRs do not apply to private sales (consumer to consumer).

[crantinope]

gyzmo,

 

"Your claim would be for misdescription, since that is the only thing you can claim for under Sale of goods legislation"

 

Does this relate to the fact that the bike was damaged?

[gyzmo]

Wellll, I'd say so.

 

It's not as if they said "Bike" and that's it. They attached a description to it. "Mint" suggests to me that the bike is nearly as new, and I do not expect to get a bike that is "mint" that has damage you describe. Although they did not specify any faults, I think the word "Mint" descries it as fault free.

[HSBCrusher]

The Regulations do not apply to:

• business-to-business contracts

• financial services sold at distance. These are covered by the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations.

• contracts for the sale of land – although the regulations DO apply to consumer rental agreements

• products bought from vending machines

• goods or services bought at an auction with an auctioneer

 

according to Distance Selling (Mail Order, Telephone and Internet Shopping) Fact Sheet - BERR

[HSBCrusher]

It is intersting to add that TV auctions are expressly covered by these regs too... it has been said that these regs dont cover ebay, IMHO they might well do.

Edited June 29, 2009 by HSBCrusher

[middenmess]

If the seller refuses to refund willingly and voluntarily then your only recourse is to make a claim through the courts.

If you reach an arrangement with the seller [sounds unlikely] then the item should be returned insured and tracked.

The bike in your possession is your only proof of your claim.

[HSBCrusher]

and ebay think so too.

 

eBay.co.uk Guides - Distance Selling Regulations And eBay

 

the only proviso is if the seller must be a business seller, so that could well include a power seller etc. If they are not a business seller the regs dont apply.

 

For a refund, the bike will need to be returned. Before you do so, you will need to photograph any damage, and it might be an idea to get it looked at by your local bike shop or similar.

Edited June 29, 2009 by HSBCrusher

[HSBCrusher]

but the seller would only accept a cheque only then telling me it wasn't his ebay account but his mates and he didn't have paypal,

 

whether or not the bike was the sellers, one could argue that the account holder is liable. Ebay certainly will. Also, there must have been a paypal account because all sellers must have one to sell on ebay nowadays, whether or not the owner of the bike had a paypal account.

 

Before you get all hobnail boots though, give the guy a chance to refund you.

[crantinope]

Thanks for the info HSBCrusher, I should be getting an update from him about the courier situation, and although I have already emailed him requesting a refund, it will give me the opportunity to ask him phone to phone so to speak. I'll update if there is any further news...cheers...Nick

[gyzmo]

Just on HSBCs point, acting as a business does not require the person to be a business in the normal sense. The courts will look at the level of trading, profit and purpose. If it is more than merely getting rid of your stuff, then it will likely be counted as a business (for example, if he's selling loads of hairdryers, it cannot be said to be a consumer transaction). But that's a tricky one to pass.

[hightail]

whether or not the bike was the sellers, one could argue that the account holder is liable. Ebay certainly will

 

I'm not sure it's that simple.

but the seller would only accept a cheque only then telling me it wasn't his ebay account but his mates and he didn't have paypal

If the cheque was made out to the mate then the ebay account holder hasn't been paid anything. This has become an 'off ebay' transaction.

[crantinope]

He has just replied to say he has can't afford to reimburse me, spent it on his new bike!!!!. Has offered to maybe pay for new forks, to get it up and running, but with all the other faults/damage, that doesn't really cut it. As the last post mentions it is now an off-eBay transaction, shall i just proceed straight to filing a claim, or should I try something else???

[HSBCrusher]

I'm not sure it's that simple.

 

It is one avenue I would follow, it might not be simple. But the auction was conducted on ebay, and ebay took a fee for the sale. Its not an off-ebay transaction.

 

did the seller know his mate was using his account? If he/she didn't, then it is fraud. The police might want to know (you never know )

[hightail]

But the auction was conducted on ebay, and ebay took a fee for the sale. Its not an off-ebay transaction.

 

Assuming the buyer made the cheque out to the mate, the ebay account holder can now claim a non-paying bidder and get his fees refunded.

 

Crantinope, who did you make the cheque out to and who did you send it to? Do you have an address for the person who took your money?

[crantinope]

I think we can safely say his mate was aware he was listing the item on his account. Without going round in circles, I think it basically boils down to the fact that I was sold something via an eBay account that was damaged in transit and therefore am entitled to a refund due to the goods being received "not fit for purpose". I have sent the seller plenty of pictures of the damage and have tried to be polite in my assertion that a refund should be made, and I don't think that pleading poverty due to the purchase of a new bike (the frame was £1,300 on it's own he tells me) even enters into it. I pointed out that a successful eBay transaction is one that ends with positive feedback all round not as soon as you get payment, but I feel it is only fair to possibly give to the end of July to receive a refund, or is this being too nice. I don't think I'm going to get anywhere complaining to eBay, but I refuse to lose this one:mad:

[crantinope]

I made the cheque out to the man with the bike, not the man with the eBay account. I do have his full address, and the chap with the eBay account marked the item as paid for when the cheque cleared on 24th June

[HSBCrusher]

normally i would say dont bother with complaints to ebay, in this case I would suggest you have a go.

 

what sort of post was used? was there any insurance?

 

Assuming the buyer made the cheque out to the mate, the ebay account holder can now claim a non-paying bidder and get his fees refunded.

 

not the case.

 

a cheque was sent, cashed, and a bike sent. This can all be proved.

[crantinope]

TNT parcel delivery, no insurance, and as stated before, wrapped in plastic sheeting and nylon sacking, just asking to be damaged. My bike that I have just sold on eBay for £700 however has been sent parcelforce insured for £750 at a cost of £40 odd quid. A little bit of effort makes a lot of difference.

[hightail]

a cheque was sent, cashed, and a bike sent. This can all be proved

 

Yes it can but not sent to an ebay seller, not made out to an ebay seller, not cashed by an ebay seller and nothing was sent out by an ebay seller. Ebay will wash their hands of it as the OP has gone against all their guidelines. At least he has proper contact details for the actual seller of the bike to make a claim in court.

 

There are other ebay related things that are worth doing. Leave negative feedback and complete the star ratings with one star for all categories. Don't leave them blank - this doesn't denote a zero score so you must leave a minimum rating. At least this will teach the idiot account holder not to list his mates' stuff for them. If he doesn't sell much he'll be suspended pretty quickly if you ensure his scores suffer.

[HSBCrusher]

leaving feedback now is losing a lever you can use later.

[hightail]

leaving feedback now is losing a lever you can use later

 

If you feel the account holder can bring pressure to bear on the seller of the bike then it could be worthwhile contacting him too. Threatening to leave bad feedback is not allowed in ebay's world and result in it being removed. You can do it but you can't let someone know you're going to do it.

 

We cannot know if this was a deliberate attempt to beat the system or stupidity on the part of the ebay account holder. I suspect the former because it would have been easy enough to play within the rules. It would also have been easy enough for the owner of the bike to set up his own ebay account to sell it - unless he was already banned of course.