Entrapment?

[HONESTKNOB]

Hi,

I work for a major betting shop chain.

Recently the gambling comission have been sending round underage people to try and place bets in betting shops.

This week 4 staff have been suspended in my district for serving them. While I admit it shouldn't happen it seems harsh to me that they now face losing their jobs over one mistake.

Surely this amounts to entrapment though. The police cant do it but the gambling comission are fine with it. I just wondered if this is a legal practice and if the staff involved had any grounds for appeal if they do lose their jobs?

[mustang67]

Seems a common practice. Trading Standards are always sending kids into Supermarkets and Off Licences to see if they get served with alcohol. When I worked in a Supermarket, the checkout staff where warned that they could lose their jobs if they where caught serving any one underage.

[elche]

I'm afraid that if the employer can show that the employee's concerned had sufficient training to know that they should not serve under age customers, the the employee would, in my opinion, have a less than 50% chance of succeeding in a claim for UD if following a proper investigation and a procedurally correct disciplinary process the employee was dismissed.

 

The employer could argue that such lapses could lead to the loss of their betting licence me thinks?

 

Che

[HONESTKNOB]

Thanks for the replies. I guess that's it then. Just seems harsh when another company is just giving their employees written warnings for exactly the same offence.

[Helford]

Same thing happened here:-

 

Sainsbury's store becomes first major supermarket in country to face alcohol ban for selling wine to children | Mail Online

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

I don't like the word entrapment makes the people enforcing the Law/Regulations sound devious.

A child gets sent into a shop to buy alcohol or cigarettes by trading standards, the owner gets fined, it serves as a warning to others.

I would ask how many other children were served in the shop over the last week, I suspect many more, thats why we need to have people monitoring the stores.

 

Regards

 

Andrew

[HONESTKNOB]

Cant agree there mate, I work in a town centre shop and am used to underage trying to get in. I ID 3-4 a day and have to record these on a form that can be inspected by the gambling comission. My area manager has seen a photo of the lad that has been sent round and even she says he looks about 22 and has been chosen because he look a lot older that he is. I know for a fact nearly 30% of the shops he went in he got served and I also know that betting shop staff arent that lazy. One cashier was a new starter who had only been in the job 2 weeks and now faces the sack for one mistake. I say entrapment because it is, he is sent in to place a bet when he is underage. If the police stood on street corners asking to buy drugs or offering sex to kerb crawlers it would be illegal. I see this exactly the same. None of our staff wake up in the morning and think I'll go and get some kids addicted to gambling or drag them in off the streets. I just think it's so wrong.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

I disgree if a law is broken then its broken, the person/s involved should face court action, taking a bet from a minor is illegal.

I know that people have argued that he/she looks older, what real difference does that make the company will still be fined.

We are never going to know if other minors have managed to place bets, but its likely.

 

Andy

[HONESTKNOB]

Lol, Come and work in a shop Andrew and take a thousand bets a day and at the end of the week say hand on heart you never made a mistake, never took a duff bet, never lost money and never served someone you'd never seen before and maybe, just maybe should have ID'd. We work in an industry that relies on split second decisions and mistakes can happen. I just hope you never make one small mistake in your job which costs you your job. It's easy to sit and judge but until you've done our job you cant comment. I said all along I'm not saying it was right to serve them and I warning or something is fine, that's what Corals are doing. We have staff that open shops late, lose hundreds of pounds for no reason, get done by con men etc etc and nothing happens to them. These staff make one mistake, a mistake! and get suspended. If you think that's fair Andrew then please come and work a day in my shop!

[Lula]

there is only one answer, id everyone, it is a pain in the rear but at least the under aged kids wont get served.

[HONESTKNOB]

Lol, Welcome to the real world. We single man for 5 hours a day. A thousand bets a day plus paying out 4 grand a day on roulette machines. You dont have time to blink. This isn't Tescos with 20 tills. Like I said, do the job and then see if you feel the same.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Well Honest,

Lol, so its funny that minors place bets at your establishment, somehow I don't think many will agree with that.

The only person sitting as Judge, is a Judge or magistrate, I dont need too there are already enough to deal with criminals.

Simply stated if I break the law, then I take a risk of being caught, yes I might claim ignorance, that I'm a special case, or its someone Else's fault, there are no special cases it would be my own fault.

On at least 4 occasions offences took place at your establishment, the law is there to protect us all, how can one argue against that.

If a job is stressful for whatever reason then why do your colleagues not look for something else, is there a real risk of any of them being convicted, I under stand loss of their jobs is a possibility.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited May 8, 2009 by old_andrew2007
typo

[HONESTKNOB]

Thanks for not even bothering to read my posts properly Andrew. My shop was one of the ones that passed the test and refused him. I love my job or I wouldn't do it, I'm just trying to give you an idea of how it is in a betting shop, I guess you've never even been in one. I really hope you lose your job one day and find it acceptable. It's easy to preach when it's not your neck on the line. All I came on here for was to find if entrapment is legal, not to be preached to.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

I really hope you lose your job one day.

 

Unfortunately this is an open forum, you will get answers you don't like.

I was once told "don't ask a question if your not prepared to accept the answer", not everyone who hears an answer they don't like will retort to a personal comments as above, some of course do.

Its not entrapment its the people we empower doing their job, or what we expect of them, you may not like it but thats how it is, they enforce the law/regulations, if a law is broken then it is right that action is taken.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited May 8, 2009 by old_andrew2007
Added last sentance

[HONESTKNOB]

My question was is it legal, I got the answer, yes it is. There are nearly twenty thousand people looking to take union action against this with a mass exodus of staff. So you think it's fine for someone with twenty years perfect service to lose there job over one mistake Andrew?

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Fairness is a matter for an ET, to rule on.

Your in the employer needs to protect their licence, so they have to be seen to act in order to protect their business.

 

I've seen colleagues being disciplined after making a single mistake, some have chosen to resign before their meeting (a mistake in my opinion unless they were going for constructive dismissal), some have been dismissed, some had other sanctions applied, and kept their job.

Each case is unique, some have mitigating circumstances, some did deserve to go.

So yes to answer your question it is can be right for someone to lose there job after 1, 10, or 20 years service after one mistake, it will depend again on what they did, or in some cases what they omitted to do,

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited May 8, 2009 by old_andrew2007
typo

[mustang67]

Once again the innocent pay the price, ( shopworker) as there are usually signs on Betting Shop doors or windows saying no admittance to under eighteens. Should the person be done for ignoring the signs, and therefore breaking the law? If you are a motorist and ignore a sign we all know what the consequences can be.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Hi mustang67,

I suppose you could check to assertain if someone commits an offence by entering a betting shop aged below 18.

They may not be, but the owners may commit an offence by allowing them in, seems strange but who really knows.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited May 8, 2009 by old_andrew2007
typo

[mustang67]

Be bouncers on the doors next!!!! Like a lot of pubs use

[borisbeaver]

ID cards for all.

 

I'll get me coat!

[weedalli]

Andrew and others on here, have you ever worked in the a bookies?

 

Honest, totaly agree with you, we had all the gambling commission thing as well, they spent two days in head office then came out to the shops.

 

That day I happened to be working in a particulary rought shop (relief manager). This young girl turned up, gambling commission, just out of uni, found out she was on £30000 a yr, how do I know, I asked her, if u work in this industry your not a shriking violet.

 

She lasted 3 hrs in my shop, she actually said she couldnt cope with the hassle lol.

 

Unless you have worked in this industry you have no clue what it's like, it's not just underage we have to worry about, it's the abuse, the threats and the fear of actual bodily harm.

[weedalli]

Oh, forgot to add and the conmen....

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Honest asked the question is it entrapment well its not, people are doing their jobs and ensuring the laws are not broken.

Why do some try to fluff the issue, asking people if they could work in a shop, be it in a betting office, an off-licence or anywhere where sales are restricted to persons over eighteen.

If I break the law, I take a risk of being caught, and punishment will follow, this applies to us all.

I might claim ignorance, or I'm a special case, its someone Else's fault, buts its my own fault, there are no special cases.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[HONESTKNOB]

If it's a simple case of people doin their jobs and the law not being broken then why are the police banned from doing it Andrew?

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Sorry about the delay in replying, but HONEST, you already know its not entrapment, police are involved in cases when children are sent under cover to make purchases of contraband. Crackdown on shops selling knives to teenagers | UK news | guardian.co.uk

The above is just one example of an operation where the police are being proactive, they were not entrapping anyone, its the person who sells the item who breaks the law.

 

If anyone is aware of age restricted items being sold to a child in the Tyneside area then do please look at the following link.

Age Restricted Products Questionaire

If we all act together we can support the police and local authorities to protect minors from unscrupulous individuals.

 

Andy

Edited May 9, 2009 by old_andrew2007
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