Smarterchick and Securitisations

[Smarterchick]

Some info here from Holmes Financing (No 5) and Abbey. My mortgage is with Abbey so this is of interest to me.

 

http://www.aboutabbey.com/csgs/StaticBS?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1118928215345&cachecontrol=immediate&ssbinary=true&maxage=3600

 

 

SO, from that document Tifo, lets define "Intercompany loans" for one minute. What exactly does that mean in laymans terms?:

" The principal asset from which Holmes Financing (No. 5) PLC will make payments on the notes is an intercompany loan to an af®liated company called Holmes Funding Limited.

. The principal asset from which Holmes Funding Limited will make payments on the intercompany loan is its interest in a master trust over a pool of residential mortgage loans held by Holmes Trustees Limited."

Let's strip this to pieces, long though it may be

[Smarterchick]

Supersleuth, can you explain something to me please? Abbey securitised their portfolio's through Holmes Financing plc of various numbers No1;No2 etc..over various years. Companies House show some of these companies in Members Voluntary Liquidation thus: What happens to the securitised mortgages and loans within these portfolio's in this case?

 

04992222 HOLMES FINANCING (NO. 8 PLC

04258785 HOLMES FINANCING (NO 5) PLC - in Liquidation

04167953 HOLMES FINANCING (NO. 4) PLC - in Liquidation

05115696 HOLMES FINANCING (NO.9) PLC

03946294 HOLMES FINANCING (NO.1) PLC

05865155 HOLMES FINANCING (NO.10) PLC

04645659 HOLMES FINANCING (NO.7) PLC - in Liquidation

04359738 HOLMES FINANCING (NO. 6) PLC-in Liquidation

04154576 HOLMES FINANCING (NO. 3) PLC-in Liquidation

04056122 HOLMES FINANCING (NO.2) PLC

 

 

This gets more curious as we go along....mmm?

[roony]

maybe some of those are also dormant?

 

Yup, thats great, thanks OK... so if a company is "dormant" - but is a part of a Group - eg "Co 1 Ltd" is dormant, and is a sub. of "Co 1 Group PLC" - can you SAR "Co 1 Group PLC" and are they legally bound to send you any relevant data for the whole group, including "Co 1 Ltd" as a subsidiary company?

 

I can find nothing but wooly maybes on this and I've googled extensively. Does anyone have a definitive on this?

 

Cheers

 

Mo

[Smarterchick]

maybe some of those are also dormant?

 

 

I'm not concerned with the dormant companies, I want to know what has made these companies go into liquidation. They are Members Voluntary Liquidations, but that means disposing of the assets somewhere else. If a motgage is included for 20 yrs in a tranche, what has happened other than they have resold them to another perhaps?

[tifo]

" The principal asset from which Holmes Financing (No. 5) PLC will make payments on the notes is an intercompany loan to an af®liated company called Holmes Funding Limited.

 

The principal asset from which Holmes Funding Limited will make payments on the intercompany loan is its interest in a master trust over a pool of residential mortgage loans held by Holmes Trustees Limited."

Let's strip this to pieces, long though it may be

 

To me, it reads that Holmes Financing No 5 gave a loan to Holmes Funding, who will make payments from its share of the mortgage pool held by Holmes Trustees.

 

So where did Holmes Financing No 5 get the loan to give to Holmes Funding and where did Holmes Trustees get its mortgage pool from?

[Smarterchick]

To me, it reads that Holmes Financing No 5 gave a loan to Holmes Funding, who will make payments from its share of the mortgage pool held by Holmes Trustees.

 

So where did Holmes Financing No 5 get the loan to give to Holmes Funding and where did Holmes Trustees get its mortgage pool from?

 

 

..and why did Holmes No 5 go into liquidation?

[Suetonius]

Hello All, the attached document would appear to confirm that it is only the equitable interest that has been assigned and that the legal title was kept by Abbey.

 

 

Page 44

The sale by the seller to the mortgages trustee of the mortgages has taken effect, and any sale of mortgages in the future will take effect, in equity only. This means that legal title to the loans in the trust property remains with the seller, but the mortgages trustee has all the other rights and benefits relating to ownership of each loan and its related security (which rights and benefits are subject to the trust in favour of the beneficiaries).

 

Page 101

Under the mortgage sale agreement, on 26th July, 2000 the seller transferred by way of equitable assignment to the mortgages trustee its interest in a portfolio of loans, together with all of the related security to those loans.

 

Page 104

The loans in the current portfolio were assigned, and any new loans (including the new loans to be assigned on the closing date) will be assigned, to the mortgages trustee by way of equitable assignment. This means that legal title to the loans and their related security remains with the seller until notice of the assignment is given by the seller to the borrowers.

 

Page 206

The sale of the mortgages by the seller to the mortgages trustee will take effect in equity only.

 

Page 269

The principal purpose of the Company is to acquire an equitable interest in a portfolio of mortgages and enter into all financial arrangements in that connection.

 

Page 277

The principal purpose of the Company is to acquire an equitable interest in a portfolio of mortgages and enter into all financial arrangements in that connection

[Smarterchick]

" Page 277

The principal purpose of the Company is to acquire an equitable interest in a portfolio of mortgages and enter into all financial arrangements in that connection"

 

"The principal purpose of going out this morning was to rob a bank"

 

I find this somewhat contradictory and I think Superslueth has claimed that despite what is written in these documents they are not lawful and a part of the overall screen of deceipt.

 

Page 44

"The sale by the seller to the mortgages trustee of the mortgages has taken effect, and any sale of mortgages in the future will take effect, in equity only. This means that legal title to the loans in the trust property remains with the seller, but the mortgages trustee has all the other rights and benefits relating to ownership of each loan and its related security (which rights and benefits are subject to the trust in favour of the beneficiaries). The mortgages trustee has the right to demand that the seller give it legal title to the loans and the related security in the circumstances described in Assignment of the loans and their related security ± Legal assignment of the loans to the mortgages trustee'' and until then the mortgages trustee will not apply to H.M. Land Registry or the Central Land Charges Registry to register or record its equitable interest in the mortgages.

Because the mortgages trustee has not obtained legal title to the loans or their related security, there are risks, as follows:

 

..anyone who throws a 'but' in is up to something...

 

 

 

..and it's because of this in red above. What gives them the ' right ' to demand Title if they don't actually own it or it's not some kind of fiddle? Superslueth is saying they can't do this ...This is what he/she has emphasised numerous times by stating this wording is unlawful.

 

Great work Suetonius - you do like testing the water don't you?

[Suetonius]

Great work Suetonius - you do like testing the water don't you?

 

lol, you know I do.

 

However, as Superslueth will agree without notice to the debtor, the assignment cannot be legally absolute therefore the legal title will remain with the original mortgage provider as per s.136 of the Law of Property Act 1925;).

 

This document evens goes so far as to confirm this:

 

Page 104

The loans in the current portfolio were assigned, and any new loans (including the new loans to be assigned on the closing date) will be assigned, to the mortgages trustee by way of equitable assignment. This means that legal title to the loans and their related security remains with the seller until notice of the assignment is given by the seller to the borrowers.

 

 

Has anyone ever received such a notice ?

[supersleuth]

lol, you know I do.

 

However, as Superslueth will agree without notice to the debtor, the assignment cannot be legally absolute therefore the legal title will remain with the original mortgage provider as per s.136 of the Law of Property Act 1925;).

 

Suetonis,

 

For the record - Supersleuth DOES NOT AGREE - please do not ascribe my agreement to something to which I have not given my expressed agreement.

[Suetonius]

lol, you know I do.

 

However, as Superslueth will agree without notice to the debtor, the assignment cannot be legally absolute therefore the legal title will remain with the original mortgage provider as per s.136 of the Law of Property Act 1925;).

 

Suetonis,

 

For the record - Supersleuth DOES NOT AGREE - please do not ascribe my agreement to something to which I have not given my expressed agreement.

 

Sincere apologies

[supersleuth]

Apology accepted with thanks.

Supersleuth

[kegi]

suetonius

Has anyone ever received such a notice ?

 

none that I have read of and as we know all know in the docs they issue out they have no intenion of doing so or of registering their title to the properties and I keep asking myself the same? over and over in my head... why not...If I offered to buy 10 houses on my street today no deal could be done without me receiving 10 signed letters from these owners handing over to me full title to these house's,and then I'd be off like a shot to register my ownership of these propeties...again why would I not and risk being charged with breaking the law ..if not today tomorrow

Talk about being confused

ps apart from the fact of insuring them how could I do that ...

kegi

[Suetonius]

It confuses me just as much as you.

 

It is amazing the information you can find on the internet though

[Smarterchick]

Right, Swift Advances plc - I need to know asap if we can nail these flu carriers with the securitisations of Swift Advances plc portfolio of mtgs and loans - mine in particular is Feb 2006. If anyone can help search these out and link these beggars to any of these companies below which pkelly has kindly supplied us with on the Swift thread I'd be eternally grateful:

 

" someone asked about Alcentra, and Alchemy, sorry for not getting back to you sooner, hope this helps, please private message me again if need be

 

Alcentra was formed by Alchemy Partners who bought them out and merged two asset managers - Imperial Credit Asset Management and Barclays Capital. Alcentra Group Limited entered into an agreement with Barclays Bank PLC Alcentra, an asset management group focused on the leveraged debt markets, is majority owned by the Alchemy Investment Plan, a Guernsey based private equity investment plan advised by Alchemy Partners with the balance held by Alcentra's management team.

Alchemy Partners sold 80% of its interests in its portfolio company Alcentra Group to the Bank of New York in 2006

Swift Advances was sold to venture capitalists Alchemy Partners."

Thanks pkelly the net's closing...

[roony]

Out of curiousity, have you sar'd the mortgage company?

[Smarterchick]

Out of curiousity, have you sar'd the mortgage company?

 

 

Yes I did roony, but that brings you nothing more than basics, these people keep anything they don't want you to see. They are as tight as a ducks a*rse and that's watertight.

[roony]

If you look at the computer printouts they send, the trustee's name is printed. I'll have a look, when i get some time, it might be worth looking at the computer printouts they sent you again, just in case, as i received the name of the trustee from both Abeyy & GE capital.

 

I've found so far : BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Statement from Swift

 

Swift is licensed by the Office of Fair Trading ("OFT") for Consumer Credit Lending and is a member of the Finance Industry Standards Association (FISA) and works within its code of practice.

 

Swift is also a member of the following trade associations and subscribes to their codes of practice; # Finance and Leasing Association ("FLA") # Consumer Credit Trade Association ("CCTA")

[roony]

Have you checked the 395 forms listed with companies house on Swift Advances?

 

They should tell you definitely who the spv or trustee is?

[roony]

As a basic guide to all those trying to use securitisation, as legal evidence in court, this will help you provide evidence that the mortgage owner no longer owns your mortgage

 

1. SAR your mortgage company . Have you checked the computer printouts they send?

 

Out of the 200 pages they usually send :

 

I found the trustee is stated on the computer printouts they usually send, it basically looks like a screen dump of all their data, from their spreadsheet or database program.

 

1.01 Find the Land Registry Number of your property, at the Land Registry

 

1.1 Check with companies house if there are 395 forms listed with the trustee mentioned in the screen dumps sent with your SAR. Or look up your mortgage company on companies house anyway. If not goto step 2

 

1.2 Order all the 395 forms from the date of your securitisation upto six months after that.

 

1.3 The 395 forms will clearly state the spv

 

1.4 Look up the spv on companies house & order the 395 from the date of your mortgage & upto 6 months after that

 

2. Goto InvestEgate, Company Announcements This is probably the best site on the net to find your prospectus, it searches most of the major stock markets & links the prospectus's to download, much better then going to the crappy FSA offices

 

You can also try the ISE, irish stock exchange, or go down to the FSA offices

 

2.1 The prospectus will tell you who the trustee & spv are, goto 1.1 to find the 395 forms registered at companies house

 

3. To link your property to the spv, you need to download all the prospectus for the trustee & the spv, from the date of your mortgage to about 6 months or more

 

Once you've downloaded all the prospectus's, you need to search the prospectus's for the land registration number of your property

 

This will link the prospectus to your property & the spv & the trustee

 

I should've made this point clearer, so i've added a section

 

3.1 From there using the date of the prospectus, you need to make a s.425 request to the spv, to see the charge, LISTED on the 395 forms stored at the spv's premises

 

You might have to inspect multiple 395 forms stored at the spv's premises, from the date of your mortgage, to find the one which links to your prospectus.

 

From what i've heard from a few Cagger's, the charge paperwork listed at the spv companies building, might also contain the Land registration number of your property, & other mortgage details like the transaction number, I havent been able to confirm this as yet.

 

This will provide proof of the charge linking the spv to the prospectus

 

You can either request the company for the documents, or go down & inspect the documents yourself.

 

 

4. To provide further proof, using the evidence above, you can use CPR 31.16 to demand they disclose the mortgage transaction number & provide copies of the charges registered with companies house

 

5. Your success in court will depend on your understanding of the securitisation process, & your ability to explain, how the prospectus is linked to the charges & your mortgage, to the judge, including an indepth understanding of all the statutes involved

Edited May 8, 2009 by roony

[Smarterchick]

Thank you roony, brilliant stuff...

[roony]

np, the guide is thanks to supersleuth & his excellent posts

 

As an addendum to the guide, he also mentions the prospectus is also called something like a memorandum of articles, or some other title. It might be worth downloading all the documents listed on investegate & searching them for your land registration number.

[elizabeth1]

As a basic guide to all those trying to use securitisation, as legal evidence in court, this will help you provide evidence that the mortgage owner no longer owns your mortgage

 

1. SAR your mortgage company . Have you checked the computer printouts they send?

 

Out of the 200 pages they usually send :

 

I found the trustee is stated on the computer printouts they usually send, it basically looks like a screen dump of all their data, from their spreadsheet or database program.

 

1.01 Find the Land Registry Number of your property, at the Land Registry

 

1.1 Check with companies house if there are 395 forms listed with the trustee mentioned in the screen dumps sent with your SAR. Or look up your mortgage company on companies house anyway. If not goto step 2

 

1.2 Order all the 395 forms from the date of your securitisation upto six months after that.

 

1.3 The 395 forms will clearly state the spv

 

1.4 Look up the spv on companies house & order the 395 from the date of your mortgage & upto 6 months after that

 

2. Goto InvestEgate, Company Announcements This is probably the best site on the net to find your prospectus, it searches most of the major stock markets & links the prospectus's to download, much better then going to the crappy FSA offices

 

You can also try the ISE, irish stock exchange, or go down to the FSA offices

 

2.1 The prospectus will tell you who the trustee & spv are, goto 1.1 to find the 395 forms registered at companies house

 

3. To link your property to the spv, you need to download all the prospectus for the trustee & the spv, from the date of your mortgage to about 6 months or more

 

Once you've downloaded all the prospectus's, you need to search the prospectus's for the land registration number of your property

 

This will link the prospectus to your property & the spv & the trustee

 

From there using the date of the prospectus, you need to make a 425 request to the spv, to see the charge, this will provide proof of the charge linking the spv to the prospectus

 

The prospectus with the land registration number is proof your mortgage owner no longer owns the mortgage

 

4. To provide further proof, using the evidence above, you can use CPR 31.16 to demand they disclose the mortgage transaction number & provide copies of the charges registered with companies house

 

5. Your success in court will depend on your understanding of the securitisation process, & your ability to explain, how the prospectus is linked to the charges & your mortgage, to the judge, including an indepth understanding of all the statutes involved

 

Roony that's a really good post. Thank you!!

 

Would the same apply with other mortgages - like Abbey?

 

Also I'd like to know what would happen in the event of situations where like there is the original mortgage (say 1998) and then additional borrowing with same company in like 2003.

 

I'm thinking that perhaps there would be two lots of securitised mortgage/loans? So I'd be looking for two different lots of info on this?

 

Now this makes me wonder whether Abbey ought to have been selling the second loan/charge (increasing borrowing) if the first loan had already been securitised and Abbey no longer owned the rights to do this cause they weren't legally the owners at that point?

 

OR am I getting confused?

[scedminc]

Hi roony.

 

Very good post, however are you sure it is correct that the prospectus contains the land registry numbers as I have a copy of what I believe is my prospectus and there is nothing to identify any individual mortgage. I have also look at other prospectuses and again I have never seen this information within them?

[Smarterchick]

I don't think you'll find anything in the prospectus, it will be amongst the s.395 info and what that gleans thereafter that the title numbers will appear, the stuff we are not supposed to see.

 

Elizabeth1 raises another interesting point on further advances or loans in addition on your mortgage. Apart from the fact (although look at this carefully) that many further advances and loans on existing mortgages SHOULD be classed as Consumer Credit Agreements rather than dumped on the mortgage and often multiple agreements at that as some of your arrears will have been cleared and some case provided for other things (search multiple agreements on here) the mtg may well have been securitised at the earlier time before one took out the additional lending so eeffectively would have been separate agreements. I understand though that if you arrange a completely new mortgage or remortgage through the same lender they would need to re-purchase the mtg from the spv and set up a new one. This happended to me in 2004, My original mtg was taken in 1989 but I organised a new package on a 2yr discounted fixed rate in 2004 so the bank would have repurchased my mtg and the securitisation I should find in the first tranche after 2004 that were bundled together. Just got to find it, but I will.