Equita/Council Tax - Removal notice, but I've paid! Help!

[Sarah_Pussycat]

Hi everyone - need some advice!

 

Quick summary - I owed some council tax as I hadn't noticed the direct debits weren't going out. It went to the bailiffs - I called the bailiff several times to arrange payment but he either said he'd call me back and didn't or told me to call back later which I DID only to get the same thing.

 

I came here for advice and was advised to pay the council direct (I did it online and still have the email receipt). I then sent a letter by recorded delivery to Equita, with a copy of the receipt, informing them what I had done. (They had already added charges despite me not receiving a visit or even a phonecall back from the bailiff!)

 

Today I have received a "Removal Notice" - stating as follows:

 

Our Recovery Officers have been unable to make contact with you at home I have therefore, rearranged for them to be in your area with a removal contractor during the course of the next two weeks.

(I spoke to the bailiff a total of 6 times to arrange payment and have not received one visit or call back)

Where do I go from here?

[chris600uk]

I came here for advice and was advised to pay the council direct (I did it online and still have the email receipt).

 

That was good advice, especially because you can now rely upon section 45 (3) of the Council tax regs see here: The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

[chris600uk]

I then sent a letter by recorded delivery to Equita, with a copy of the receipt, informing them what I had done.

 

Spot on, well done! You did exactly the right thing.

 

They had already added charges despite me not receiving a visit or even a phonecall back from the bailiff!

 

Well that IS naughty! But it makes no difference because they have no legal way of recovering those fees, and any attempt to do that would be unlawful and fraudulent.

 

 

Today I have received a "Removal Notice" - stating as follows:

 

Our Recovery Officers have been unable to make contact with you at home I have therefore, rearranged for them to be in your area with a removal contractor during the course of the next two weeks.

 

That's very useful, so what I suggest you write back will be in my next post

[scatz1972]

If you havent had visit then the bailiff bill is ZERO.

 

Also that letter you received is a standard issue threatogram.

 

Are you 100% sure that the council bill is totally paid?

[chris600uk]

While I'm trying to find it here's a bit of background info:

 

 

MAKING A COMPLAINT ABOUT A CERTIFICATED BAILIFF

 

Section 8 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 provides for a person to file a complaint at court against a certificated bailiff and challenge his fitness to continue work as a bailiff.

 

Complete a Form 4 complaint and return it to the bailiff’s certificating court. Keep everything factual and short. Call 0207 210 0516 with the name of the bailiff to find the court name and address.

 

 

Grounds for making a complaint can include:

 

The Bailiff is untrustworthy

Collecting a debt that is larger than the debt originally claimed by the creditor

 

The bailiff defrauded you

He over-charged you in fees committing an offence under Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)©(i) of the Fraud Act 2006

Charged a fee that is not prescribed in law – e.g. a credit or debit card fee or a van fee etc

Charged a fee contradicting Section 10 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988

Charged you a walking possessions fee without you signing it

Tricked you to sign a walking possessions agreement pretending the document was something else – e.g. a receipt, or payment confirmation.

Getting you to sign a walking possession agreement before telling you what the fee will be

Charged you attending to remove fee on his 1st visit

Seized goods valued disproportionately higher than the debt

Sold your goods at a disproportionately lower price than you would have otherwise attained at auction (e.g. on eBay)

He has charged you fees for previous visits while you were out and says you have to prove those visits were not made

He has charged you fees for visits or posting letters that contradict Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 e.g. by sending them to a different address.

 

The bailiff is dishonest or of unfit character

He was aggressive, rude, threatening or intimidating

Pretended to be an officer of the court

Impersonated a solicitor or police officer

You sustained an injury by the bailiff (Contact a solicitor and make a separate claim under the Personal Injury Protocol)

Lied about the extent of his authority

Damaged your goods, car or property (Reclaim these from the authority that instructed the bailiff via the small claims track)

 

The bailiff committed extortion or blackmail

He said you will pay a higher sum of money unless to pay him a lower sum of money according to a deadline

 

The bailiff levied incorrectly

Seized goods that are not yours, e.g. belonging to a room mate, finance company, landlord, friend, relative, employee, client or neighbour

Goods you require for domestic basic needs, e.g. fridge, cooker, clothes, bed, chair, medical equipment

Non-movable goods e.g. a TV or painting bolted to a wall, or item needing a tool to remove (not vehicles requiring a tow truck)

Intellectual property or item covered under The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 or a computer containing the aforementioned

Tools of your trade, including a van, taxi or minicab (not criminal debts, fines, CSA, HMRC etc)

Goods subject to a hire purchase agreement

 

The bailiff did not adhere to the law

Threatened to break into your home or get a locksmith without a valid levy

Called at night

Entered your home by applying force against you, a door or window

You have a disability, ill, or heavily pregnant

Refused to show proof of authority, name of certificating Court or proof of debt (Contact police on 9999 and report a burglary in progress)

You (If you’re an Attorney – your donor) do not have mental capacity

You have filed an appeal or a statutory declaration against the debt

He seized a computer or laptop and didn’t allow you to recover data stored on it (you should immediately contact a solicitor specialising in Intellectual Property)

 

The following are not sufficient to make a complaint on their own, only to supplement a complaint.

 

The bailiff was unreasonable

He called at an hour when most people are normally asleep

Climbed through a window

Climbed over a gate or fence

Used ladders, climbed a fire escape, emergency exit or other external structure not normally used as an entrance

Refused to give a fee breakdown until after you have paid them

He set a deadline for you to pay that’s disproportionately short compared to your ability to pay

 

 

The Court will give the bailiff 14 days to answer your complaint.

If the bailiff fails to respond he will be summonsed, but you don’t need to attend.

 

 

The Court can:

 

1. Order the bailiff to pay you compensation from his bailiff bond. This is a monetary deposit or a policy similar to liability insurance.

2. Revoke the bailiff’s certificate

3. Dismiss the complaint

[chris600uk]

That's a very good point, have you checked with the council that you've paid what was listed on the liability order?

[Sarah_Pussycat]

Hi and thanks!

 

Yes I paid the whole amount outstanding on the liability order.

 

I also just checked the Royal Mail website and Equita signed for the letter I sent them (I quoted bits of the relevant legislation in there too!).

[scatz1972]

Hi and thanks!

 

Yes I paid the whole amount outstanding on the liability order.

 

I also just checked the Royal Mail website and Equita signed for the letter I sent them (I quoted bits of the relevant legislation in there too!).

 

But have you checked with the council that the bill is settled? I know it sounds funny but quite often the bailiff charges will come off the money before the council bill is cleared. So its very important that you check.

[Sarah_Pussycat]

I'll ring the council tomorrow just to check. They recieved the letter I sent THEM too though! (got the bill for the next year today - nothing outstanding showing on that, although I'm not sure if they do that or not!)

[scatz1972]

I'll ring the council tomorrow just to check. They recieved the letter I sent THEM too though! (got the bill for the next year today - nothing outstanding showing on that, although I'm not sure if they do that or not!)

 

I believe they do normally say if there is an amount outstanding from previous year(s)....but just check to be double sure.

[chris600uk]

I think scatz is right to raise that point, you can't be too careful.

 

And it sounds like you don't need me to write a letter either

[tomtubby]

CHRIS.

 

 

 

Complete a Form 4 complaint and return it to the bailiff’s certificating court. Keep everything factual and short. Call 0207 210 0516 with the name of the bailiff to find the court name and address.

 

On the above point there will shortly be no need to call this number as HMCS are going to be putting the names of all bailiffs on line. This will enable the public to instantly see if a bailiff is certificated and which court to address any complaints. I will keep you all advised when this becomes in operation.

[scatz1972]

CHRIS.

 

 

 

Complete a Form 4 complaint and return it to the bailiff’s certificating court. Keep everything factual and short. Call 0207 210 0516 with the name of the bailiff to find the court name and address.

 

On the above point there will shortly be no need to call this number as HMCS are going to be putting the names of all bailiffs on line. This will enable the public to instantly see if a bailiff is certificated and which court to address any complaints. I will keep you all advised when this becomes in operation.

 

Thats fantastic news!

[Sarah_Pussycat]

I have a bit of an update - I called the council earlier and my last bill is definitely paid off now!

 

I've just got in from work to find a nice letter confirming this, also that they've notified the bailiffs (the letter from the council and the bailiffs were posted on the same date so the bailiffs probably sent their one before they were notified by the council - unless it was a last ditch attempt to try to get money out of me!)

 

So just to confirm - I've paid the council, I HAVEN'T received any visits or calls from the bailiffs, so I don't owe anybody anything, right?

[scatz1972]

I have a bit of an update - I called the council earlier and my last bill is definitely paid off now!

 

I've just got in from work to find a nice letter confirming this, also that they've notified the bailiffs (the letter from the council and the bailiffs were posted on the same date so the bailiffs probably sent their one before they were notified by the council - unless it was a last ditch attempt to try to get money out of me!)

 

So just to confirm - I've paid the council, I HAVEN'T received any visits or calls from the bailiffs, so I don't owe anybody anything, right?

 

No visits = no fees

[ctman2009]

Lets separate the 'wheat from the chaff' here. I work IN council tax, no name - no council - no pack drill. Contrary to popular (misconception) belief that the councils will pass accounts to bailiffs on the first opportunity, is a load of poppycock. I can empathise with the OP BUT there are several things we need to look at here and they ARE important. With ANY council, the council tax is adminstered, governed and enforced pursuant to 'The Local Government Finance Act 1992' with amended parts for 2002/2003 et al.

 

The procedure is as follows, the law states that all councils must set the rates for the coming financial year by 11th March, no later, so you end up with a bill 14 days prior to that (depending on how slow or fast postie is!) detaling the schedule of either 12 monthly payments or 10, depending on what your local council has agreed to internally for collection methods.

 

If you MISS the first payment, fine, it's not a cardinal sin nor a hanging offence, so we 'the council' send you out a reminder, its not, as some would allude to a threatening letter, merely a polite advisory that IF you do not pay within 7 day or contact us we will take enforcement action (the act empowers us to and a duty of care to those that pay on time means we have to).

 

So, after the 1st reminder, if you've paid, all is well, you shouldn't hear from us unless your circumstances change, you ask for a copy bill or an amendment.

 

Most councils are fine, now, if you miss a payment again, you'll get a 2nd (and final reminder) so a third time means you get a Final notice, lose the right to pay by instalments and risk further enforcement action.

 

The reminder 'clock' is reset each year so councils don't hold it against you, but it is quite literally a 2 strikes and you're out ruling, which on balance is a fair and entirely proportionate response. No one LIKES paying CT but the law of the United Kingdom say we have to and that is that.

 

On a final notice, you have two choices, set up a recurring DD mandate or pay in full and settle whatever is left.

 

Now, before bailiff action is even taken, you will automatically receive the following by standard 1st/2nd (third class?) post.

 

1st reminder

2nd reminder

Final Notice

 

or after a default on a 1st reminder (i.e. you use it to block the cat flap up!) an automatic summons, at which point depending on the council you'll end up with 60-70 quid added as costs 'the application hearing costs' for a liability order (bailiffs cannot be instruced until the magistrates grant this). Then usually at 10am on the hearing date, one month later you get hit with a futher 30-40 quid council costs for the l/order and that's that.

 

No response to the further letter sent (how many DO you need!?) MEANS bailiff action is a certainty. No ifs no buts and the account will only be returned from the bails if either a) the l/o cannot be enforced 'nunna bonna' i.e. the bailiffs had no effect or someone is on benefits and owes thousands in which case an AOB is done.

 

Now, the point it this, when your direct debit fails you get an AUTOMATIC letter, asking you to pay this prompty outside of the schedule, you know when the DD goes out, so not knowing is a little bit of a fib as we ALL check our bank accounts regularly (and if not - why not), so due notice was given and if you've not acted and its gone to bails or summons, well your own fault, so sorry. The times ive heard 'i never open my mail' (WHAT!!!?????) or 'i've been travelling for a few months' (your point is?) etc and i could reel off a thousand and one excuses why someone has not paid, and as usual, they never get the 1st, 2nd reminder, nor the summons, nor the final notice BUT - they always get the bailiffs letter .. (or usually summons) . So there we are I am afraid to say that ALL councils give enough chances to pay, we ALWAYS with due dilligence send out letters for you to ACTION, and if you end up with an account with the bails (unless it is our fault and usually we DO remove costs but i cannot legally say here why otherwise everyone will be trying it on) then its through either a) ignorance, b) stupidity or c) a combination of a) and b) that you're in a pickle.

 

And as far as the myth about No Visits and No fees goes, cobblers. As SOON AS the bails get the account they'll happily send you a letter by hand usually, which is 40-50 quid depending on bails, and if it goes on for more than a few months the charges are horrendous, eventually in some cases i have seen debts for 80 quid turn into 800, its quite bad to see.

 

the bottom line, literally, is this. if you are in financial difficulties PICK UP THE PHONE, we are human, talk to us, we can work out a revised payment plan and so long as you stick to it you'll never see a nasty bails letter in the letterbox. We always give benefit of doubt in cases of genuine distress but if you've got an account with bails, don't ring the council trying to pay them or get it returned, it ain't going to happen, i assure you.

 

And another misconception, students don't pay ... YES YOU DAMN WELL DO .. UNTIL you send us in a student certificate showing you're exempt - a class N exemption for a student household or a personal 'disregard' if you're a sole occupier, if i had a quid for every time i pick the phone up and find some scroaty student on the end - i would be like dey boy 'Miwwionaires' .... but in the current financial climate don't bet on it !

 

I have also of late heard some cobblers about people trying the 'you can't chase me for debts over 6 years' as they're barred by the statute of limitation ... nice try but it doesn't work with CT for various reasons, one prima facie case went to court a few years ago and the DJ shot the appellant down like a stuka bomber for being an ass politely reminding that 'you had the chance to have your day in court and decided not to' ... own goal.

 

If you try that one with your local council we will laugh at you (but only after you've out the phone down!)

 

HTH

 

Equita have a web site and using the bails reference number you CAN pay online direct to them, any amount. As for a removal notice, thats the last hit and hope, write to equita at their head office DONT ring the bailiff as he/she only wants one thing payment in full. So .. pay online even if its just a token payment, you're proving that you WANT to pay and are not risking 3 months in chokey for wilful refusal if it goes back to court. and it often does.

 

Whilst some bailiffs use questional tactics and are seen as less than human, my ultimate response is as follows, if I have to pay council tax, why shouldn't you?

Edited March 14, 2009 by ctman2009

[chris600uk]

Lets separate the 'wheat from the chaff' here. I work IN council tax, no name - no council - no pack drill. Contrary to popular (misconception) belief that the councils will pass accounts to bailiffs on the first opportunity, is a load of poppycock.

 

While I can understand where ctman is coming from, that is not the overall impression I get from the many threads I have read since I joined this forum in 2007.

 

if you miss a payment again, you'll get a 2nd (and final reminder) so a third time means you get a Final notice, lose the right to pay by instalments and risk further enforcement action.

 

Although this sounds reasonable, the fact is that any person who has missed a payment for the third time is unlikely to be able to pay in full, and if this happens in the early part of the financial year, they are likely to be faced with enforcement action even if they are able to pay off the whole council tax bill by the end of the financial year.

From what I have seen, that happens more often than it should.

 

so not knowing is a little bit of a fib as we ALL check our bank accounts regularly (and if not - why not), so due notice was given and if you've not acted and its gone to bails or summons, well your own fault, so sorry. The times ive heard 'i never open my mail' (WHAT!!!?????) or 'i've been travelling for a few months' (your point is?) etc and i could reel off a thousand and one excuses why someone has not paid, and as usual, they never get the 1st, 2nd reminder, nor the summons, nor the final notice BUT - they always get the bailiffs letter .. (or usually summons) . So there we are I am afraid to say that ALL councils give enough chances to pay, we ALWAYS with due dilligence send out letters for you to ACTION, and if you end up with an account with the bails (unless it is our fault and usually we DO remove costs but i cannot legally say here why otherwise everyone will be trying it on) then its through either a) ignorance, b) stupidity or c) a combination of a) and b) that you're in a pickle.

 

I think you are being unfair, there may be people that you have come across who have been "trying it on", but it seems to me that most of the people who come to this site help are definitely not trying it on.

Quite often the people who ask for help find themselves in a pickle because of personal tragedy, illness either mental or physical, or because they have lost their jobs; and many posters have commented on the unhelpful attitude they have encountered when in contact with the council.

I sincerely hope that you never find yourself in such a desperate position.

 

 

And as far as the myth about No Visits and No fees goes, cobblers. As SOON AS the bails get the account they'll happily send you a letter by hand usually, which is 40-50 quid depending on bails,

 

I cannot agree with you, the council tax (administration and enforcement) regulations, are very clear about when and how and why bailiff fees should be applied. Sadly many bailiffs not only misrepresent their powers, but they also falsely claim fees when they have no right to. The regulations do not provide for letter fees when collecting council tax arrears, I think you are getting mixed up with parking tickets.

 

the bottom line, literally, is this. if you are in financial difficulties PICK UP THE PHONE, we are human, talk to us, we can work out a revised payment plan and so long as you stick to it you'll never see a nasty bails letter in the letterbox.

 

Oh I wish that that was true for everyone, and it may be so for anyone who contacts you personally, but it's surprising how many people have made agreements with their council, kept to them, and then found the bailiffs knocking at the door.

 

 

We always give benefit of doubt in cases of genuine distress but if you've got an account with bails, don't ring the council trying to pay them or get it returned, it ain't going to happen, i assure you.

 

We don't hear of many people receiving the benefit of the doubt very often.

The council have a contractual relationship with the bailiffs, so once an account has been passed to the bailiffs it cannot be returned unless the account holder fulfils the criteria.

 

 

Equita have a web site and using the bails reference number you CAN pay online direct to them, any amount. As for a removal notice, thats the last hit and hope, write to equita at their head office DONT ring the bailiff as he/she only wants one thing payment in full. So .. pay online even if its just a token payment, you're proving that you WANT to pay and are not risking 3 months in chokey for wilful refusal if it goes back to court. and it often does.

 

Anyone who pays the bailiffs online, when they could just as easily pay the Council online is a fool. The bailiffs will deduct any charges that they think are owed to them, the council will not.

As for risking three months in jail, that is simply ridiculous, unless the council can prove that the debt spend the money he should have paid in tax on a holiday to the Bahamas -- otherwise jail is unlikely.

 

Whilst some bailiffs use questional tactics and are seen as less than human, my ultimate response is as follows, if I have to pay council tax, why shouldn't you?

 

Councils throughout the United Kingdom, carry out surveys on the effectiveness of the bailiff services that they use; and those Bailiff Reviews which are available to the public through the Freedom of information act, show that councils are well aware that a significant proportion of bailiffs act incorrectly or illegally.

It's worth pointing out, that council tax arrears nationally represents approximately 1% of the council tax liability.

 

The bailiff industry is worth £6 billion, and represents money that should have been paid to creditors or councils, but that is lining the pockets of the owners and shareholders are bailiff companies.

 

In an ideal world, we would all be able to pay our share of the tax that the country needs to keep services running, but in a liberal democracy such as ours we have to accept that there are some people who are unable to pay it.

Adding to their misery is not going to make it any easier for them to pay.

[scatz1972]

£40 - £50 for a letter thats wierd considering the statutory fee scale for bailiffs collecting council tax doesnt allow for a letter fee

 

People come to this site for support and advice, not to be judged.

[ctman2009]

While I can understand where ctman is coming from, that is not the overall impression I get from the many threads I have read since I joined this forum in 2007.

 

 

 

Although this sounds reasonable, the fact is that any person who has missed a payment for the third time is unlikely to be able to pay in full, and if this happens in the early part of the financial year, they are likely to be faced with enforcement action even if they are able to pay off the whole council tax bill by the end of the financial year.

From what I have seen, that happens more often than it should.

 

This is why we offer either payment in full OR a direct debit plan and if, it is the case that the party still cannot pay we can send out what is called a financial information form, which once received, we set up a payment plan, providing the plan is adhered to, it stays any further enforcement action. we can ONLY take enforcement action with bailiffs IF a l/order is obtained and not before. One of the reasons why the 'better' councils (and I DO think I work for one) only have a payment plan for 10 months, so you have a 2 month break to re-adjust finances before the main billing, which for us incidentally hits next week ..

 

 

 

I think you are being unfair, there may be people that you have come across who have been "trying it on", but it seems to me that most of the people who come to this site help are definitely not trying it on.

Quite often the people who ask for help find themselves in a pickle because of personal tragedy, illness either mental or physical, or because they have lost their jobs; and many posters have commented on the unhelpful attitude they have encountered when in contact with the council.

I sincerely hope that you never find yourself in such a desperate position.

 

I am in no way suggesting that anyone who comes to the forum is 'trying it on' we live in desperate times and a council tax bill can push people over the edge in the same way as utility bills do, the difference is when people ring us (and this is my personality coming out here) i NEVER ask when are you going to pay, i always ask WHAT can you pay or try and work through a solution, it is far better to get the money in a trickle than to turn off the stop taps and fire a l/o in the courts. Court action really is a last resort, if 3 seperate communications doesn't prompt either a letter, email or telephone call (and if requested we can do call backs..) nothing will

 

 

I cannot agree with you, the council tax (administration and enforcement) regulations, are very clear about when and how and why bailiff fees should be applied. Sadly many bailiffs not only misrepresent their powers, but they also falsely claim fees when they have no right to. The regulations do not provide for letter fees when collecting council tax arrears, I think you are getting mixed up with parking tickets.

 

Erm, some evidence please or is this another urban myth coming to the fore? I think you will find that (and it is certainly the case with the bails we use, that they will and DO levy a charge for each and every letter, and if they were not entitled to do so under legislation the amount of stage 1 complaints referred to the LG Ombudsman would be enormous, and 'no' i am not getting 'mixed' up with parking tickets ... leave that to the yellow perils and the cowboys called NCP.... enough said on that subject !

 

Oh I wish that that was true for everyone, and it may be so for anyone who contacts you personally, but it's surprising how many people have made agreements with their council, kept to them, and then found the bailiffs knocking at the door.

 

if you make an agreement with the council, it is on file, it has to be as part of the councils policy on regulation AND data protection (remember that many councils utilise call centres now and probably 95% (but not all) calls are recorded both on servers AND on the accounting screen, for what was said, agreed, done, sent or remitted. I have never come across as situation of someone agreeing a payment plan and then sending to bails, ONLY if they default and that's only after a summons has been issued and in the case of what is called a 'special arrangement' which stays bails action PROVIDING the charge payer KEEPS to the agreement and does not default once. On that note there must be some bad councils about.

 

 

We don't hear of many people receiving the benefit of the doubt very often.

The council have a contractual relationship with the bailiffs, so once an account has been passed to the bailiffs it cannot be returned unless the account holder fulfils the criteria.

 

I treat people fairly, with respect, openly and will bend over ar** backwards to help a young mum with 2 kids on bens who has a residual bill if they're not on a full bens award, in one case of a 95 year old left on her own myself and a colleague pulled so many favours to get social services round within 48 hours it was a 'thunderbirds mission' and i was GLAD to help. Yes of course there is a contractual relationship with the bails, the only two scenarios that correctly exist is either the debt is settled via the bailiffs or indeed no effect in which case a return and usually a temporary hold whilst further investigations are ongoing to determine the circumstances of the charge payer and then its either a payment plan which can extend many years OR a rolling AOE or AOB ...

 

 

Anyone who pays the bailiffs online, when they could just as easily pay the Council online is a fool. The bailiffs will deduct any charges that they think are owed to them, the council will not.

As for risking three months in jail, that is simply ridiculous, unless the council can prove that the debt spend the money he should have paid in tax on a holiday to the Bahamas -- otherwise jail is unlikely.

 

Anyone who thinks the bails are going to quietly disappear down the sewer 'is a fool', if its at bails its there for a reason you have either not paid, ignored reminder after reminder, buried the debt under the mat alongside the others or indeed defaulted on an S/A, which is your last chance, and quite frankly if you've squandered every chance to sort your finances out AND seek HELP from the council, you only have one person to blame for the predicament, yourself. No it is not 'ridiculous' at all - the statutory penalty for either wilful or culpable refusal to pay (once your dragged kicking and screaming into court) is 3 months UNLESS the magistrates are satisfied of extenuating circs. and issue a 'Sine Die' order on the account and pass it back, then we play the game of monopoly and roll the dice again ... Jail in some cases is VERY likely, especially with what we call the habitual 'year on year' debtors, those who every year, and like clockwork fail to pay, fail to heed the reminders, ring in, waste OUR time when we could be helping those in REAL need and want to pay, with S/A's and god knows how many agreements, which we know will be breached as soon as we put the phone down, why shouldn't those who flount the law not go to prison? 'Ignorance is no defence' said a clever lawyer once. I know of landlord that have propeties in London but live in Edinburgh, why? because we can NEVER enforce a liability order without significant cost and applications under scottish law for the sheriffs. there are those out there who know exactly how to play the system.

 

Councils throughout the United Kingdom, carry out surveys on the effectiveness of the bailiff services that they use; and those Bailiff Reviews which are available to the public through the Freedom of information act, show that councils are well aware that a significant proportion of bailiffs act incorrectly or illegally.

It's worth pointing out, that council tax arrears nationally represents approximately 1% of the council tax liability.

 

1. I doubt that you'll ever get access to THAT info even by using FOA, ive never heard of it being successful....

 

2. You seem to suggest either a cohesive level of corruption or collusion with the bailiffs - RUBBISH Sir. Utter Rubbish. Not to my knowledge are we 'aware' that bailiffs act illegally or incorrectly. The law is in place to protect the public as well as to administer the legal obligations of collection by the council, period, there's no grey area on this, its written into the law of the land.

 

The bailiff industry is worth £6 billion, and represents money that should have been paid to creditors or councils, but that is lining the pockets of the owners and shareholders are bailiff companies.

 

So, solution, scrap council tax and make it the job of central government to collect it - Yes? Not a change in our lifetimes, debt is a sad fact of life, some live a life in debt and poverty, which is tragic, others have the ability to pass a credit card round the door when the bails call to take the porsche off the driveway or parking space, its called the class system and in my view there are those that WILL pay, those that WONT pay (and deserve jail time) or regrettably CANT pay, the CT system unfortunately doesnt take into account losing a partner, losing a job, getting cancer (and tragic cases do come to my knowledge) or other issues of lifes troubles, its a tax that never stop, never sleeps and never gives any empathic response to the needs of those that pay it.

 

In an ideal world, we would all be able to pay our share of the tax that the country needs to keep services running, but in a liberal democracy such as ours we have to accept that there are some people who are unable to pay it.

Adding to their misery is not going to make it any easier for them to pay.

 

we have to accept that there are some people who are unable to pay it., i agree, that is why the benefits system for rent and CTB was set up to make provision for the poor, the needy and impoverised, however, as we have seen of late and in last weeks press, 2 women who scammed 600 grand from the tax payers coffers through a very complex and cleverly crafted web of multiple identities, names, addresses etc etc and thankfully, although an empty gesture by the judge, has ordered they pay back every last stolen penny, so at the rate of a quid a week which is the most likely offering we'll be well into the 6th millenium where bailiffs have been replaced by robocop enforcers and council tax officers are holographic images with the voice and physical representation of Cat from Red Dwarf ... a sobering but light hearted thought !! If in debt, not doubt, Google for your local CAB, of Debt Advice Line which is 0808 808 4000. The two women were also immigrants to the UK ( don't get me started on THAT thread or we'll be here all night..) Of late I spoke to someone on Bens who came from a far off country who had an account with the bails and informed me that she had a husband and child to support, commendable BUT its the TAXPAYER who's money provides the benefits, so she in fact supports nothing at all, and THAT is what is perhaps wrong with the system, its far too easy to 'dip into the pot and take take take', but when it comes to putting something in ... you work it out. And to very quickly rub salt into an open wound, in Birmingham about 2 years ago, two somalians who had been in the country for 4 years and NOT claimed a penny (so how were they living?) went to their local refugee help centre, who kindly andf dilligently pointed them in the direction of the local JCP... which after assessment of bens and entitlements asked them to come back in two weeks and collect their 'cheques', one walked away with 16 grand, the other some 22 grand ... a fair system ? you decide, and they never paid ONE PENNY into the system, little wonder they're queuing up at the Sangatte camp to hitch a lift on a passing artic lorry to the land of milk and honey, but in the next breath will happily bomb us all to oblivion so they can live in paradise with seven virginal brides, well. i dont know how many virgins are left in the Uk but a cheque for 22 grand in my hand and i'd think i WAS in paradise ... something to chew on me thinks.

 

'thankyou'

Edited March 14, 2009 by ctman2009

[scatz1972]

http://www.midbeds.gov.uk/Images/Charges%20connected%20with%20Distress_tcm5-28171.pdf

 

Factsheet from national debtline aswell - bailiff fees for the collection of council tax as set out in the statutory fee scale The Council Tax Administration & Enforcement (Amendment) 1993. Si 773 amended by Si 295 0f 1998, Si 768 of 2003 and Si 3395 of 2006

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax

 

there is no provision for a letter fee.

[ctman2009]

Apologies my error, we call it a 'letter fee' but its a statutory bails fee made up to a value of 42.50, which WILL be levied after every visit (which results in a letter being hand delivered to the CP, hence the term) .. regardless how its dressed up they do and will add to it if non reply is entertained and if they turn up with a van for a closed posession order that sticks 200 quid on average to the sum total, i've seen accounts with 80 quid CT debt go to 800 quid in 2 years of someone not contacting bails ... there we have it - the evils of 'bailiffery'

 

bailiffadviceonline .co . uk .... makes a little clarity to the issue.

Edited March 14, 2009 by ctman2009

[scatz1972]

Apologies my error, we call it a 'letter fee' but its a statutory bails fee made up to a value of 42.50, which WILL be levied after every visit (which results in a letter being hand delivered to the CP, hence the term) .. regardless how its dressed up they do and will add to it if non reply is entertained and if they turn up with a van for a closed posession order that sticks 200 quid on average to the sum total, i've seen accounts with 80 quid CT debt go to 800 quid in 2 years of someone not contacting bails ... there we have it - the evils of 'bailiffery'

 

bailiffadviceonline .co . uk .... makes a little clarity to the issue.

 

A Bailiff collecting council tax can charge £24.50 for the first visit where no levy was made ie. your out.

 

£18 for a second vist again where no levy was made i.e your out.

 

If a bailiff fails to gain entry or levy on your goods then a bailiff can charge no more than £42.50 maximum even if s/he visited a million times.

[Sarah_Pussycat]

ctman2009 - and BREATHE! I sort of know how you feel as I happen to work for the Jobcentre!

 

I didn't post the whole circumstances up there as I just wanted advice on my immediate problem and didn't wanna bore people to death!

 

My council tax direct debit comes out of the same account I use for all my bills - I just pay the right amount in there at the beginning of the month and leave it to do it's thing - I don't bother checking that account as it's not the money I use in my day-to-day life - it's just for my bills.

 

Now here's why I think the problem occured in the first place - I was already on a "special arrangement" as I missed a few payments earlier last year (due to personal problems which I am NOT gonna post on here!) so I already had the liability order through the court, but had made arrangements to pay with the council and the direct debits were going out fine.

 

Now it just so happened that I'd paid a lump sum - so I called the council to ask if they could REDUCE my monthly direct debit, and they said they could - so I DID check my bills account and noticed that payment hadn't gone out!

I got straight back onto the phone with the council - they told me that the direct debit had been cancelled in error and that they'd adjust the monthly account acordingly - I took them at their word and just paid the new amount into my bills account.

 

And no I didn't bother to check it again - I just assumed it was going out as the council told me so!

 

When I DID actually check it again (I don't look at that acount much) and noticed the direct debits hadn't been going out - and I got straight on the phone to the council so I could pay it - but they told me it had already gone to the bailiffs. I asked if I could pay then - and the bloke asked his supervisor and came back with a "NO".

 

I asked for the bailiff contact details and they gave me the number - but I had no luck there as their automated system asked for an account number and a pin number "which can be found in the top corner of the letter" - which i obviously didn't have as it had only just gone to the bailffs and I hadn't yet recieved a letter!

 

A couple of weeks later I finally recieved a letter from Equita with the numbers I needed to get through on the phone (no mention of the website on there to pay them!) so I called them as I wanted to arrange to pay (the money was still sitting in my bill account!) and they gave me a mobile number for the bailiff assigned to the case. I called him a total of 6 times over a 2 week period - gave him my landline and mobile numbers, and for whatever reason he never called me back!

I had NO IDEA how to pay as the council wouldn't take it over the phone, and the only thing on the letter from the bailiffs was a postal address and I don't have a cheque book - and the bailiff himself wasn't getting back to me!

 

That's when I came on here for advice - and was told (by scatz I believe!) that I could just pay the council directly online - I didn't know I could do that before.

 

Anyway it's been a positive outcome - the council replied to the letter I sent them saying my account was cleared - and DESPITE the letter I had from Equita threatening removal of goods etc, they sent me another one today to say that I don't owe them anything!

Edited March 15, 2009 by Sarah_Pussycat
bad spelling mistakes! bet i've still missed a few!

[ctman2009]

As per scatz reply above, in which case it is quite clear that there 'may' be the issue that bails are making a hell of a lot of money outside of the parameters of what they can charge, relying on people's lack of knowledge of the law, and this is where I personally think it should be more regimented and tightended up, the bails companies have a trade body for complaints which is a little like a trade body of fagin, fagin and oliver .. in other words everyone's got their heads in the trough, I however stand by what I have been told on the phone from people who have mentioned large sums of fees from the bailiffs, perhaps its the case that if people don't challenge the fees then the bails wins. With regards to the ability of making payments direct to the council, whilst the council will accept payments if they're sent in the post or over the counter and various drop in centres, it creates a headache as the recovery team then have to update the bailiffs, who get a crap on as they'd rather see the money in their coffers,take their cut then pay CT whatever is left. The official line from my council is that if someone has bails we never take payments over the phone, its with bails and that's that, harsh perhaps but the policy has to be complied with because we are told to enforce it that way. The one problem is this, its ok paying the council online but the bailiffs get their noses put out of joint and will add fees, 'just for the hell of it' , legally or otherwise .. once a DD fails you should have got a letter from the council asking you to make immediate payment by other means, if a DD fails twice we will cancel the DD and you'll have to either reset it or pay manually, the problem with resetting DD's is that the dates for payment become less and less and the computer re-calcs what you owe, resulting in higher payments (not being charged more just over a shorter period of time as the bills usually need to be paid by end of March ready for the next fiscal year).

 

I'm glad you got it sorted out in the end and the bails off your back, if you feel that the council has acted outside its own parameters then make a stage 1 complaint and if you're not happy with the response refer it to the LGO, if the LGO state a specific action needs to be taken i.e. removal of summons, fees and bails action, then the council is duty bound to comply, we have no choice, the LGO is the final word.

 

The removal notices are designed to get people in a panic and pay the bails direct to whichever bailiff is assigned, dispite what people have said about NOT paying the bailiffs, if you are in default and its gone that way, you don't have much choice ... as mentioned above, charges suddenly get slapped on, the problematic issue is that whereas with 'most' councils you can set up an S/A and pay in instalments, most bails want the hard cash in full, they care not whether you're broke, destitute, just lost your job or have 2 kids on bens, the harsh reality of debt in the 21st century.

 

There is in fact a way you can get the bailiffs from your door quite easily but i cannot mention it for legal reasons and you WONT find it in legislation, but there are methods which will result in an immediate and unconditional bailiff recall from the doorstep if necessary ... and the call to the bailiff is made there and then by the recovery department, which unfortunately you'll never speak to personally as most councils don't let calls from charge payers go through to the recovery teams, its a back office part of the enforcement. (incidentally don't try ringing the council with the line 'how do i get the bails off the doorstep?' you'll be told just to pay them!)

 

Alls well that ends well then?

 

LGO = Local Government Ombudsman, and their website is http://www.lgo.org.uk/

Edited March 15, 2009 by ctman2009

[chris600uk]

I hope my post has not caused any offence, I hold my views honestly and they are based on my experience.

 

The only point that I would like to go back over, is the matter of Bailiff Review; whether intentional or not this information is actually available on the web, admittedly not every council distributes this information on the Internet, and now that you've raised the question about access to that information I am left wondering how it got there in the first place.

 

 

Having said that, the information is out there and does show that councils who conduct such reviews (and I believe that all do) are fully aware of the extent of the reported misbehaviour of bailiffs.

 

 

I doubt that we will agree on a number of issues, and that is as it should be; but I'm very glad that you have joined the site, because people need a balanced view.

 

Chris.