Halifax Credit card CCA

[Fingers60]

Hi All

 

I have requested a copy of my Halifax CCA. However, just in case I have they have not lost it I found a copy !!!(copy below)

 

I will follow the procedures outlined in this forum with regards necessary correspondence. The CCA does not have any of the prescribed terms so to be looks unenforceable.

 

Has anyone gone to court with a similar Halifax CCA and what was the outcome?

 

Knowing that Halifax will know this is unenforceable how easily will they roll over here ?!!

 

And one last question, when you look at the various CCAs across the banks where a number may have 1 prescribed term missing and others a few or all etc...is there a degree of enforceability ie. the more prescribed terms missing the less likely it can be enforced? or is more black and white that that in your view eg 1 missing = enforceable?

 

Cheers

 

Fingers

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

[Fingers60]

Thanks for your kind words and support Angel appreciated. Sounds like you have got your life back which is great and chuffed for you keep it up !

 

Babydoll - I cant remember if there was a reverse or not. If there was I only photocopied the front page. When Halifax respond to my cca request I will post it on here for all to see.

 

Cheers guys keep up the good work.

[Fingers60]

Hi ya All

 

Following my CCA request I have today received the following 3 documents below. None of the documents contain my original signed CCA and as you know I have a copy of this in my posession on file already and we know it is unenforceable!

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/2cft6pv.jpg

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/ieedfr.jpg

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/24obwnt.jpg

 

I received exactly the same format response for my Intelligent Finance credit card which are part of Halifax Bank of Scotland group so I assume this is now their standard response across the group?

 

Do you think they are sending these 3 letters out when they have a copy of the CCA and know its unenforcable or just because they know they have probably lost it ?!

 

The 2nd 2 documents are the front pages of a CCA they have knocked up with my name and current address on..and the 2nd document is the same but for my old address which is the address when I took the card out.

It looks like they have just reprinted the T & Cs from the time I took my card out and reprinted them with my name and old address on. It does not correspond in any way to the original CCA copy I have on file.

 

Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?

 

How would you suggest I proceed given they have sent me the above docs?

 

Do I now proceed with the formal "account in dispute" letter, which gives them another 28 days to come up with the original ?

 

As you know I have a copy of the actual unenforcable CCA so just curious if you think I should be playing this differently from this point onwards?

 

Cheers guys

 

Fingers

Edited February 19, 2009 by Fingers60
added info

[Fingers60]

hi 42man

 

i signed my ccs with halifax in sep 03....so it is within 6 years of age

 

should i fire off your first letter....to give them amother 28 days to produce the original CCA? if they fail then they are comitting an offence?

 

and then fire the the 2nd 6 year letter off?

 

does anyone know the answer to my other question below

 

"Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?"

 

keep your opinions suggestions coming !!!

[Fingers60]

Quote:

I thought 42man's letter was really good and straight to the point.

Thanks It's actually my letter. He just nicked it.

 

lol

 

Thanks Rory.

 

F

[Fingers60]

Hey all hope you are keeping well. An update for you;

 

After I received the covering letter with details of my card and printed T & Cs I fired for 42man's dispute letter asking for a copy of my actual CCA.

Thanks to 42man, a copy of the cca arrived yesterday.

They have sent me the front page of the cca which I already had a copy of http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

 

The apparent T & Cs are on the back of this document http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg Now you may recall from one of my posts above that when I first applied for my CCA Hali sent me the standard HBOS response which included a) covering letter with your current credit card details on there eg balance / limit etc http://i43.tinypic.com/2cft6pv.jpg b) printed out T & Cs from from my original application date including my name and old address within the first page for my old address when I took the cc out http://i44.tinypic.com/ieedfr.jpg

 

It has been noted in previous posts about the suspicion of the lender just photocopying the T & Cs at the time onto the back of the copy of the CCA. If these T & Cs contain the prescribed terms and are on the back of the same document then I believe that it qualifies for the 4 corners rule and is therefore enforceable?(can anyone confirm this rule for me?)

 

But points to note that concern me here:

 

1) When I first asked for my cca they didnt provide it and sent me the document of printed T & Cs see point b) above. This document states "this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep". It also has my name and address printed near the top under "Halifax Credit Card - conditions of use". So one would assume this is a true copy of the of my agreement would it not? The document contains 13 points in total points 1 contain sub sections 1.1 to 1.6.

 

2) Now lets look at the reverse page of my pre-printed copy of my so called original agreement.

 

-it looks like they have just cut and pasted the T & Cs from somewhere onto the back of the copy of the CCA.

They have reproduced points 1.1 to 1.6 from the first document B as above because section 1 of their total of 13 points contains the prescribed terms .

 

-there is no link on page 1 to the reverse page saying "see T & Cs overleaf" etc - no corresponding reference numbers etc

 

-the reproduced text is totally out of proportion to the a4 page size and indeed the text overleaf

 

3) It is interesting to note other caggers posts on "Halifix's" cca agreements and what they have received..note the following link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/176296-could-anyone-tell-me.html

 

-in this post wilko999 has scanned in the front copy of the cca and he goes on to note..."on the reverse" is scanned the important information section of the T & Cs section 1.1 to 1.6....so therefore Halifax are saying this is a true copy of the original document

 

4) now look at this caggers post http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/184446-help-please-dca-saying.html

 

-wilko999 states the following:

 

"exactly the same as mine - and mine was enforceable" when questioned why as no prescribed terms he states "mine were on the reverse, I chanced it, went to court - I lost. Up to the poster to decide how they wish to go with it but just letting you know that's what happened to me"

 

when questioned on Halifix producing the original documents in court wilko999 goes on to state ..."When I was in court the documents produced were the original documents, the T's&C's were on a seperate page but they deemed them to be acceptable and part of the agreement as the agreement refered to them."

 

So.....in wilkos case Halifix have made an obvious attempt to create a true copy of the original document with the CCA on the front and the 1.1-1.6 T & Cs on the reverse...but when in court they have produced the original documents with both of the above on seperate pages ???!! WTF ??!!

 

So they know that both pages needed to have been on the same document to make it enforceable? I am surpised wilko didnt point out to the judge hat this was a blatant attempt at fraud ?

 

So they are sening out cut and shut documents , caggers post them up on here and they look enforceable....however have they not left a paper based audit trail to wilko and he had a copy of their so called back to back original but seperate original docs were produced in court ??!!

Is this not a deliberate attempt to deceive and could this be view as fraud?

 

So I now have a document the same as wilkos but in reality the original is different ?

 

Any thoughts here guys ???!!! Or should i put my sherlock holmes hat and pipe back in my cupboard ??!!

 

42 man ...what do you think?

 

F

Edited March 29, 2009 by Fingers60
post was wrong ..im a numpty !!

[Fingers60]

Hey Babydoll

 

I cannot find any link to WILKO999 's thread you mentioned , can you direct me or provide the link?

 

Cheers

 

F

[Fingers60]

BUMP

 

Sorry chaps I had to re-edit my post but it is now correct and would apreciate you views and that of site team

 

hellp !

 

F

[Fingers60]

BUMP

 

Hi 42 Man,would be really gratefulif you could review my last post at 10.42

 

Just wondered what you thoughts are on the scanned T & Cs on the back of the photcopied cca

 

how would you proceed from here ??

 

cheers

 

f

[Fingers60]

Bump

 

Hi Guys

 

I am still unsure what do do with Halifax. Clearly the precribed terms are not there in the front page document but contained within the T & Cs they have photocopied on the reverse.

 

How would you go forward with this one? Post 24 is my key post I need help with.

 

Cheers

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

Hey Mazza

 

I am taking legal advice on my halifax agreement should have some feedback within next 2 weeks. When I do I will post it up as no doubt will apply to you.

 

In the meantime just to be ultra cautious on your CCA copy you can see your pesonal details on the reverse page of of the T & Cs on photobucket...albeit the details are backwards I would just rescan this !

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

Gotta watch each others backs !!

[Fingers60]

Hi All

 

Still waiting for the solicitors advice on it but when I get it I will post it up.

 

F

[Fingers60]

Hi All

 

In my original account in dispute letter I stated the following:

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you

You may not add further interest or any charges to the account

You may not pass the account to a third party

You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency

You may not issue a default notice related to the account."

 

Does anyone know where these specific guidelines come from?

 

On one of my other threads someine suggested OFT guidelines and the Banking Code ??

 

Does anyone know ?? and where can I find the original references ??

 

Cheers

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

Fingers,

 

did anything ever happen with the solicitors?

 

Hey Indebt

 

The sols have seen my Halifax agreement and think I have a case.

I am waiting for the conditional fee agreement from them to sign and return. They mentioned the recent Leeds case vs HBOS ? think it was the ratio money case the old Mike Le Vell where they got the old man off £15K of Halifax credit card debt.... I think that case worked on the same principles ...lack of terms and conditions...the ones they are photocopying on the back of our CCAs..

 

Its slow progress my end...but if I didnt have my credit file to think of (because of my job) i wouldnt be paying halifix a penny now....

 

Chin up!

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

I had an agreement to pay £80 pm just missed one and they want me to fill out a form with my earnings, only question should the cca be a dud especially with the dodgy terms and conditions am i admitting to anything by filling this out?

 

Hey Indebt

 

Just to let you know that I have appointed a 2nd bunch of lawyers the first were very slow albeit they said my cca was dodgy.

Whe I get their full legal opinion i writing i will let you know.

 

In the meantime in asnwer to your question, i cant see how making an arrangement with a creditor can invalidate the fact that they have a dodgy cca. Personally, i would just offer them the monthly amount take it or leave it. I would be cautious about signing anything. I think the point about earnings / wealth is irrelvant anyway because it bares no consequence on the point here , which is "cant pay, wont pay". If you had £1M in the bank & a dodgy cca , doesnt mean you have to pay them back unless the court agrees that the cca is enfoecable.

 

F

[Fingers60]

Hey all - an update

 

So after receipt of a copy of my so called original CCA with the disproportionately sized T & Cs on the reverse (see below), i went to a CMC as they were using a certain law firm i wanted to tap into.

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

The apparent T & Cs are on the back of this document http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

Cutting a long story short the CMC were useless so I had to ditch them and went directly to another reputable law firm to take matters forward.

They looked at copies of both the above docs and happy to take matters forward. They asked for the original copy of what Halifax had sent me (which i had sent to the CMC) and low and behold the CMC has lost them !!! ararrrrgghhh !!!

 

So i have the copies on 2 seperate pages but not the fraudulant document halifax had cut and pasted.

 

How relevant is the original document to my case ?

 

-i have copies of what they sent me and saw the original and i can sign a witness statement to the effect

 

-if requested again by my current lawyer they are either going to provide a copy of the same document (unlikely) as advice is its unenforecable or just the front page cca without the t & cs which is unenforceable ,so either way they have no enforceable cca

 

My new lawyer (well the admin guy at the law firm) has suggested pre-action disclosure to get another copy but this could take many months.

 

Should my lawyer be going straight for declaration of unenforcability through the courts based on what we have already ?

 

Any thoughts here would be great as always !

 

Best

 

Fingers

Edited October 21, 2009 by Fingers60

[Fingers60]

I would start on the basis of not suggesting that what they sent is fraudulent,

 

a SAR would probably get you the information in 40 days

 

cant see why 31.16 would take "months" you could force them to produce within weeks if they do not comply with your 7 day request then another 7 days leeway

 

also your lawyers should be looking at the unenforceability of a pre contractual application form which cannot bind you to a future agreement??

 

IMO i would sit tight and "lull them into" issuing proceedings and showing their hand (not that they will) BEFORE giving them the bad news that you will use a lawyer.

 

If you want to force the issue yourself fine, otherwise why "waste" money on a brief until/unless you have to?

 

Your lawyer will likely not be able to give you any better advice than you can get on here

 

qualified as he may be- the folk on here have been there , done that and got the T shirts!!

 

dick

 

Thanks Dick

 

I am still paying min payments and will have to take the fight to them rather than stop paying etc.

 

ref 31.16 i am going down this route on another card and lenders are getting wise and starting to ask for longer hearings than 20 mins, for example one lender went back to the court and requested 2 hours to debate the arguments of them providing the agreement...they were granted an ajournment and not many free slots for 2 hour hearings so the initial hearing was then delayed another 5 months !!! so when i say it takes months i speak from experince !

 

yes cag is excellent it really is...but i have been doing all this myself since febuary thsi year and my 1st attempt at a cpr hearing has resulted in having to write a 4 page complaint letter agaisnst the maladministartion agaisnt the court clerks ( a long old story!)...i work full time and have done most of the hard work getting all the CCAs and now handing it over for litigation...but if you have the time yes i completely agree with you.

Lawyers working on no win no fee conditional fee agreement..was a £200 upfront fee.

 

Thansk for your comments mate

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

Hi Fingers,

 

The copy you have kept, is that a complete copy of the agreement?

 

S.

 

Hi Shadow

 

Yes it is a complete copy of the front and back of the agreement.

 

F

[Fingers60]

I apologise if I'm dredging up old stuff.. I have read through the thread but am struggling...

 

 

1) You have a complete copy of the agreement which you say is unenforceable as no prescribed terms, these obviously being.. credit limit or how they notify you, interest rate and how repayments are made/allocated etc.

 

2) You've requested under s78 a copy and they've provided agreements which dont match what you were originally given and signed.

 

What is the aim here? as you appear to have an unenforceable agreement, is it for a CMC to get the debt written off properly? bearing in mind this may touch on the test case aspect for still reporting to CRA's as contract exists, just not enforceable.

 

S.

 

Hi S

 

1) yes the original agreemnet i signed did not have the t & c's on the reverse of the credit agreement...the t & cs contain the prescribed terms

 

2) yes, the 1st page matches eg http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg but they have copied t & cs and photocopied them on the reverse of the above page eg http://i44.tinypic.com/k0prah.jpg

 

3) yes aim is to get debt written off via my lawyers properly..i am still paying minimum payments...

 

Not aware of the test case you touch on above ref CRAs etc ?

 

Best

 

F

[Fingers60]

Ok, so why the need for a copy from the other side...?? if you have shown your solicitors the original copy you have of the agreement and they agree its unenforceable then they should be seeking a declaration from the court.

 

If however they need to bolster their confidence and have a copy of a supposed agreement from the creditor and the creditor are not playing ball under s78 then the only alternative is under cPR 31.16 or to issue proceedings and use the AQ stage to ask for disclosure.

 

Alas the creditors are now getting wise to CMC's requesting agreements and sending them the same old tosh that everyone else gets I'm afraid.

 

Although it will trash your credit rating the creditors normally take more notice when people stop paying them.

 

A number of cases which deal with CCA1974 issues are to be heard in a court in manchester early next year...

 

One thats already been heard is a case involving an enforceable agreement that was temporarily unenforceable due to a invalid s78 response. The claimant wanted the bank to stop reporting the status of the debt to the CRA's as the account was in dispute as the s78 hadnt been responded to. The judge agreed with the defendant that the contract still existed and the agreement would have been enforceable as soon as the s78 response was fixed so they could still report to CRA's. The banks and DCA's are reading into this that they can report even when the debt is not enforceable... .not entirely true but hey ho!

 

S.

 

Hi S

 

Yes I agree and this is clearer for me now. Thank you !

 

Ah yes the old "account is in dispute" and under the banking code...having worked for banks in the past i know they dont necessarily adhear to the banking code !! its just a voluantary bollox scheme !!!

Even though I put this account is dispute...i am still paying payments and will not cease to until a lawyer says its ok and my CR will not be trashed !

 

Shadow you are a legend thx for helping me on this !

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

Hi Fingers,

 

I see you are still paying minimum payments.

 

I reluctantly stopped in July as they had not responded to my CCA request in April. Have had copies since which may be enforceable.

 

I have spoken to them and they have agreed to reduce my interest rate from 29% down to 12.6% and will not add any further late fees providing I make reduced payments for a period of 12 months. There are other conditions which I won't bore you with but the person I spoke to said that if I had called them before stopping payment then they may have reduced the rate on a permanent basis as this was not a problematic account.

 

A call to them may be of use if you are on a high rate.

 

Hey Dotty

 

Thanks for your advice. I did try before but the only thing they wanted to offer me was to refinance the credit card onto a loan...i wonder why ??!! perhaps they wanted me to sign a new credit agreement that was enforceable !!

 

I must say the card companies behave in quite a horrific way. I called Virgin my biggest card, spent an hour going through all my income / expenditure, explained I could not make an "arrangement" as this would effect my job...and was told sorry because you are "high risk we are keeping the interest rate high on your account" persumably squeezing as much interest out of me b4 I go POP !!! Crazy really..

 

halifax have also just written to me saying unless I close the account so it becomes just a repayable debt..they are going to ramp up the interest....again squeezing as much interest out of me before i get their agreement declared unenforecable!

 

Best

 

Fingers

[Fingers60]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/getting-out-debt/200906-halifax-cca.html

 

It's a pleasure, here is my thread if it's of any help to you.

 

Perhaps me sending in a lengthy letter of complaint helped and they replied giving me a priority customer personal contact, I must admit I just expected to get the usual pressure to pay, but there was none at all.

 

I too have a Virgin thread and another MBNA one, don't speak to them on the phone, that's what everyone advises on here. Virgin have sent what they purport to be a CCA but the other MBNA one have yet to even acknowledge my CCA request from the end of April. I stopped paying these in July and await further action by them.

 

I never wanted to stop because of my credit rating and I know some people have to struggle to pay because of their jobs but I just had enough in the end. I still have a long way to go but CAG is a godsend.

 

Good luck

D50

 

Thanks Dotty

[Fingers60]

hiya fingers

 

wondered how you getting on with this one?

 

hope you are well

 

catch up soon laters angel x

 

Hey Angel

 

Hope you are well !

 

Mixed at the mo. I met with my lawyers this week who said they were not prepared to take my case forward on a Conditional Fee Agreement because:

 

-they said they have seen loads of Halifax credit agreements fro 2002-2003 and it is their absolute belief that the first section of Halifaxs T & Cs (containing the prescribed terms) were in fact actually on the reverse of the original credit agreement i signed

 

-they also said that they felt that in court, Halifax could turn up with a blank credit agreement and witness statements to state that t & Cs would have been on the reverse

 

I put my case to them that:

 

-t & cs photocopied on the back of my credit agreement were completelt disproportionate in size

-no reference numbers linking the front and back page

-small print says that "i sign to say i had received t & cs" implying that t & cs were not on the reverse and in fact in 2 seperate docs

-i actually took a copy of the original credit agreement that i signed....prior to sending back to halifax..and i didnt recall t & cs were on the reverse...and that i actually woud sign a witness statemet to this efect

-quoted Mitchell vs HBOS june 09 and the similarities in the case

 

They think the agreement hali sent through is enforceable...and i disagree...the fact is though is that their firms attitude is they are not prepared to take the risk on a no win no fee basis.

 

Difference with me is i am still paying min payments on my card , never missed a payment....and taking the proactive approach or the fight to halifax does not seem like it can work....if i didnt value my credit file i wud av stopped paying long ago...and would let them take me to court with their agreement...

 

Any thoughts guys?

 

All the best

 

Fingers