Claim Form arrived from nowhere!

[progeniga]

Hi,

 

This morning I have recieved a Claim Form from Northampton County Court that has been issued by Bryan Carter & Co Solicitors. I obviously looked them up on the Internet and found many stories about them in your forums.

 

The claim regards an old credit card from RBS via Tesco Finance. Now if the amount they are claiming (1,800 including fees and costs) is correct then it must include an awful lot of charges!

 

From reading other posts I presume that a way forward will be to request a copy of the agreement and statement of accounts from Bryan Carter that they are claiming against me. I notice however that they should be allowed 12 working days to supply this, yet the issue date of the Claim Form is 22/12. Does this mean I should complete the Acknowledgment of Service with an intent to defend all the claim so that I get an extra 14 days?

 

If they do not supply this information would I be correct in pressuming that I could then file a defence based on the registered letter requesting the information being recieved and not acted upon... and should they supply the information I am going to have to base a defense on the amount being wildly inaccurate if at all correct.

 

Does that make sense? And if someone has any suggestions please feel free to comment.

 

Oh... and Merry Christmas

[42man]

Hi and welcome to the CAG forums.....search around this thread you will find a number of other threads involving Bryan Carter....in the first instance, you have 18 days from the date of the claim in which to acknowledge, then if you wish to file a defence you have a further 14+3 days to submit this.

 

May I ask what the POC's are ? (Particulars Of Claim) but don't be specific with the exact amounts.

[progeniga]

Particulars of Claim (POC)

 

The Claimants claim is for the balance due under an agreement which is now all due and payable.

 

The defendant agreed to pay monthly instalments under account number xxx but has failed to do so.

 

The claimant claims the sum of xxx

 

The claimant also claims interest thereon pursuant to S.69 County Court Act 1984 limited to one year to the date hereof at the rate of 8% per annum amounting to 0.00

 

 

I'm not entirely sure how the amount of interest can be zero... unless they are implying that at 8% interest it comes to 0.00... Now if my maths is still OK then I would work the original amount to be... ermmm... nothing!

[progeniga]

I've just been reading the Basic Introduction to Credit Litigation which seems very helpful, but I'm slightly confused as to why the Suggested letter does not imply sending a fee.

 

Is that because it is now a legal matter they have to send all that information to enable me to form a defence?

[ScabHunter]

Hi progeniga,

 

Don't worry, we will make sure you know exactly what to do at the right time.

 

Well done for posting nice and early. That makes an enormous difference. You wouldn't believe how many people post at the last minute, or even when it is just too late.

 

You will need to acknowledge service stating you will defend all of the claim. This can be done within 14+3 days of receiving the claim. MCOL is not going to be operational on 24/25/26 December or 1 January.

 

You should then send off letters for information under the Civil Procedure Rules. As you say, there are no fees involved in this as it is now part of a defence to a court claim.

 

Carter will not comply with your request for information. At least I have never seen a single case where he has done. Don't worry about this. You will just submit a holding defence and then challenge him again at the Allocation Questionnaire stage. That is if he doesn't bottle out before the AQ stage, as he often does.

 

The first letter you will need to send is a request for information under CPR 31.14. This covers documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, which in this case will only be the agreement.

 

Have a read of this -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html

 

You will also need to request copies of statements under CPR 18, as there are clearly unlawful charges on this alleged account.

 

If you want to read some other threads on Carter so you know what to expect, these are some useful ones -

 

A case of Carter bottling out at the AQ stage -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/158857-county-court-claim-urgently.html

 

Strange letters from Bottling Bryan -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/170922-bryan-carter-help.html

 

These threads also have templates for the CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 letters, and a sample holding defence, which will show you what you are likely to need to do in the coming weeks.

 

It will also do no harm to send off a CCA request to the current holder of the account, so that they can be nicely in default of that before any potential hearing.

 

Any questions, just ask.

 

SH

[palomino]

A request under the provisions of the Consumer Credit Act costs £1 and is independent of any court action.

 

You should instead make a request using the Civil Procedure Rules (which govern all court cases in the County Court.

This is covered in some detail here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html#post1707671.

Have a read through that thread and you will understand a lot more about what is involved and what you can do. In your particular case the agreement is mentioned in the particulars of claim (poc) so you can ask for a copy of that before the case is heard. You can also insist that the original agreement is produced in court.

 

Let us know how you get on.

[progeniga]

Hi there,

 

I have now prepared a CPR 18 and a CPR 31.14 request to be sent to BC on Saturday when the Post Office opens again. I have also completed a CCA Request (Using the first letter template that addresses the issue of section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974) for the original agreement from RBS.

 

Do you think it's worth requesting a Subject Access Request from RBS at the same time as if this continues then it will come down to an issue of charges on the account?

 

Thanks for the advice so far, now off for some festive cheer... I hope!

[bladeboy]

What a wonderful site this is. How fed up will Carters be if every time they get 'googled' it refers them to this site, awww!

[progeniga]

Despite a few printer problems you'll be glad to know all 3 letters (2 for BC and one for RBS) went in the post "Recorded and Signed" for delivery today.

 

People might like to know that although the address on the County Court form for them is the one I addressed the BC letters to it appears that the Post Office cannot validate the address when you send it as they only have a PO Box validated on the Post Office system. However the Law Society and Yellow Pages both list the BC address as shown on the Court Letter.

 

I await a reply...

Edited December 29, 2008 by progeniga

[progeniga]

Oh... and I've done the online 'Acknowledgement of Service' with intent to contest the whole claim.

[progeniga]

Still no reply from BC or RBS. Any suggestions on what to be preparing next? A reminder letter, defence form etc?

[ScabHunter]

So Carter is now in default of your CPR 31.14 request, and will very soon be in default of CPR 18 as well. Your CCA request will also enter default very soon.

 

You could, if you wanted to, spend £75 challenging Carter's non-compliance with the CPR by issuing an application -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their-3.html#post1771008

 

but there is no need to do so. You can mention his non-compliance in your defence, and then challenge again at the Allocation Questionnaire stage.

 

The preparation of the defence is the next stage. Have a look at this to give you an idea of the type of defence you will have to file -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171510-help-please-court-papers-6.html?highlight=defence#post1882272

 

and then at this to show you how to challenge Carter's non-compliance at the Allocation Questionnaire stage, which comes later -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/131499-directions-n150-n149-allocation.html

 

SH

[42man]

If they haven't replied to your CPR31 request then you could put this as your defence....POST #22 here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/161469-1st-credit-animal-2.html

[progeniga]

I have compiled a defence based on the advice given so far and would appreciate any comments before submitting it. Hopefully it is short enough to be accepted online!

 

Defence

1. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

3. The claimants’ Particulars of Claim disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or preceding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the nature of the written agreement referred to, the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant’s claim.

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and do not know what case I have to answer

5. Further to the case, on 29/12/2008 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules Part 31.14, copies of the documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely the Credit Agreement.

6. Bryan Carter and Co Solicitors have made no reply to this request.

7. Further to the case, on 29/12/2008 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules Part 18, copies of the Credit Agreement and all documents relevant to this case.

8. Bryan Carter and Co Solicitors have made no reply to this request.

9. My requests for information under the Civil Procedure Rules 31.14 and 18 have been ignored. The requests were sent via recorded and signed delivery and were both delivered and signed for on 30/12/2008. Since the claimant has refused to disclose the requested information it is submitted that I do not hold sufficient information to compile a full defence to the claimants’ allegations at this stage.

10. It is my opinion that the claimant is trying to frustrate matters in refusing to disclose the documents requested and the claimant is ignoring the overriding objective and the courts attention is drawn to the fact that the claimant has refused to respond to my legitimate request. It is submitted that the claimant taking this course of action places me at a clear disadvantage and there is no apparent reason why the claimant would seek to withhold this documentation from me.

11. The claimant is therefore put to strict proof that such compliant documentation exists

12. Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to assess if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974

13. In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.

14. Alternatively, I respectfully request the court orders full disclosure of the documentation requested in point 9. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and respectfully request the courts permission to amend my defence accordingly.

Statement of Truth

I xxxxxxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual

Signed …………………

Date

 

Thanks to all who are keeping an eye on this for me.

[progeniga]

Any Thoughts?

[blind-as-a-bat]

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

This does not apply if the claim was sent via northampton bulk centre, cpr 7c (1.4[4]) revokes the need for them to atach documents if it was served by the centre

[miffedpuppy]

But do remeber for your case CPR 7c (1.4[4]) does not revoke the obligation under Practice direction of CPR 16 para 7.3 "and the Original(s) should be available at the hearing"

[ScabHunter]

I would add in a paragraph about default notices and reference Woodchester v Swayne, and I would also mention the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, as there seems to be an excessive amount of charges on this account. Put in a paragraph similar to this -

These documents are necessary to establish the balance on the said account, to establish the percentage of the balance caused by unfair terms under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and therefore not binding on the defendant, and to establish whether or not the defendant is indeed indebted to the claimant to any degree. My legitimate request for this necessary information was ignored.

 

This paragraph is from an allocation questionnaire draft order which has just seen bottling Bryan chuck the towel in on another CAG case.

 

SH

[progeniga]

Thanks SH...

 

With the addition of the extra paragraphs it amusingly came to exactly 122 lines... the online submission limit!

 

Will see what happens next.

Edited January 24, 2009 by progeniga

[progeniga]

Quick update for those following along:

 

I'm still waiting for a response from BC. The court sent me a letter saying my defence was being served on BC on 23/01/09. Without a reply in 28 days they say the claim will be stayed and the next course of action will be for the claimant to apply to a judge to lift the stay.

 

In that case is it RBS who would need to apply to lift the stay or can BC then pass the buck to somebody else to chase the whole thing all over again?

[progeniga]

OK... this is getting silly. I have now recieved a threatening letter from another debt collection agency saying they are going to send the baliffs round or take court action.

 

I have heard nothing from the court so presumably this new company can't do anything until somebody applies for the 'stay' to be lifted.

 

Who should I be contacting next? or do I just wait for another set of court proceedings to come through?

[blind-as-a-bat]

Have you contacted the court to see if BC have discontinued the claim?

[progeniga]

no... but will do now.

[blind-as-a-bat]

If this has not been dicontinued, as far as i know, and i could be wrong, it can not be passed to another DCA (assuming it is another DCA and not connected to BC) nor can you be persued regarding the matter as it is already awaiting judgement in a ongoing case.

 

Im sure i will be corrected if im wrong

[progeniga]

I contacted the court and they say they have not recieved a reply from BC stating whether they wish to reply to my defence or not. The woman says it has therefore been 'stayed' and BC will need to apply for that to be lifted before proceeding any further... at which point I would apparently be reffered to my local court instead of the Bulk Centre. They also confirmed that BC have not discontinued the case.

 

Which begs the question.... who are the other company now chasing me for the same debt? Can they actually do this? What should my next course of action be?