Dealer being sued!!

[commaman2]

Ok, so I'm an independent sole trader!! Here is the story. I sold a car in December 2007. The buyer wrote to me in April 08 and said he found some bubbling of the paint on the bottom of 2 doors. Said it was rusty and took it for a quote at a main dealer. £2000 to replace two doors. Car is 2001 with 103,000 at time of sale. Demanded I pay in full or he'll sue for misdescription. I took advice from trading standards and consumer direct who both told me it was fair wear & tear. I replied quoting this and then a few days later recieved county court papers. He stated on this that when I sold him the car I "deliberatley concealed a significant defect and gave a false written description of the vehicle" He say's the false written description was because I said the car was free from "any dings or scrapes" Well it was!! I'm not being cocky here, but take into account age and mileage, the price paid was 7k, a new one is 45k. He inspected the vehicle twice before he paid for it. no mention was made by him about this alledged defect until some 5 months later. Where do I stand?

[gwc1000]

Hi. Personally I wouldn't worry. My interpretation of a "ding" would be a typical car park dent, and a scrape is a scrape i.e. a very deep scratch that has removed paint. Obviously the vehicle didn't show any of this. (I asume you had the doors painted before advertising the car?)

Rust on the bottom of a door is not a safety issue, and is purely cosmetic.

Did the customer get the work done? Obviously you must attend Court, or else the other side will probably win by default. I cannot imagine any Judge finding against you on this. It's an old car, and it will be considered as fair wear and tear.

[raydetinu]

Yep, agree you must defend it and will probably get kicked out.

[commaman2]

I've sent one of my body repair people to look at the car, no work has been done as of yet. He says there is some bubbling and some rust coming through and said it would only need shot blasting, preparing and painting upto the lower door moulding on 2 doors. The owner wants 2 complete new doors from Jaguar, and the whole side of the car repainting. He only wants a main Jaguar dealer to undertake the work, no one else. the claimant also states that the car has had 2 door skins fitted previously and this was done badly. (I never had anything done to the car) The result of this "poor workmanship" has resulted in the contamination. He has told the court in his letters that the best way is for me to settle his claim in full and then I pursue whoever did this work! I have no idea who did this, no idea when and no idea where!! He is also constantly on the phone to me asking me to settle, almost harrassing me with his demands!

It also might be worth pointing out that when my chap went to see the car it has sustained a nasty scrape on one of the affected doors and a rear wheel arch! I have suggested to him the reason he wants me to pay for a full respray on this side is to pay for either his uninsured losses or for him to avoid paying any insurance excess his polcy may have. It is surely against all reson to expect me to pay for damage he or someone else has done to his car!!

 

Trading Standards have told me that being a motor dealer I'm already 70% liable in the small claim court! I have been in business 7 years and sell on average 100 vehicles a year. Never had a complaint or a court case before so this is one big learning curve for me.

[raydetinu]

You will be OK, did you take photos of damaged doors?

7 year old jaguar with some rust sounds about right to me for its age. would help if you got some particulars of other similar aged cars with that sort of problem, should not be hard to find. Also did he ever give you the opportunity to comment or offer to repair it if felt inclined to.

If you were just presented with a pay this bill or else then I think thsi will help you as well; so you have atwo pronged defence.

[gwc1000]

Hi, commaman. I too am a Motor dealer, and have been for nearly thirty years. I can honestly say that if I were in your position I would have no worries over this whatsoever. It might be in your interest to offer to have your painter to repair the doors. Put this in writing and keep a copy and present this when you go to Court. No Judge is going to insist that a 7 year old car with over 100,000 must go to a Main Agent for body repairs. Technically the car is at the end of it's life anyway. Paintwork is purely cosmetic. Your customer ( I assume) inspected the car before buying, and the paintwork must have been acceptable to him otherwise he would not have bought. Did you sell this car on the internet using photos? If so, you could use those too.

Personally I would get back to Trading Standards and ask the person who told you that you are 70% to blame just for being a dealer if they would put that in writing.

[Conniff]

It's been mentioned twice before, but I will mention it again

 

Get pictures of the damage he has done.

 

If he is continually ringing asking for payment he is not too sure he will win in a court.

[Conniff]

Can you come back on this commam2 and let us know the outcome please.

[commaman2]

UPDATE

 

The guy has now obtained an independent bodyshop quote. He got them from random out of the yellow pages. He sent me a copy up, it is for £1000 and basically quotes to repiar the rusty patches and respray the whole side of the car! The funny thing was, he called me up the next day and said he wasn't happy to use them because "their body shop is in a rough part of town and is dusty and untidy inside" Yep, that is what he told me!! What did he expect a bodyshop to look like, an operating theatre!!!

 

Anyhow, i wrote back saying I rejected this quote and his claim on the basis that there is aditional impact damage to the car, which under his claim would be repaired by me!!

 

He has written back saying that when he phoned me (recorded) I was unhelpful and not willing to try and settle out of court. Well I'm not being unhelpful, trust me!! I do not want to settle at all, I think he has no claim against me and I'm not liable. Simple. I have written back asking for a copy of the phone call he alleges he recorded. I doubt he did record it, we would then hear him saying about a body shop being from a rough part of town, etc, etc.

He went on to say that this "cheap quote" just reinsated his belief that only a Jaguar dealer should carry out the work.

 

I'm sure he says things like this to try and convince me of how wrong I am, and to try to show to the court I'm un-cooperative!! It's almost like he is pilling pressure on me and wants to settle now because he maybe having doubts as to his claim now. I suppose any settlement outside of court is a victory for him, at least he gets his car fixed for free.

 

I have got around a dozen pictures of the car, including the new impact damage.

 

There where photo's on the advert, but I no longer have them. well it was nearly a year ago and it would be almost impossible to keep pics of every car I sold!!

 

He viewed the car at my shop before he purchased. He was here for around a good 2 hours. I then agreed to deliver the car 60 miles to his office a few days later. When I got to his office he insisted on another inspection and another test drive! This sticks in my mind as unusual because I'd just driven 60 miles to get there!! How did he think it got 60 miles without being driven I don't know!!

[gwc1000]

When I got to his office he insisted on another inspection and another test drive!

 

I have to say at that point I would have refused and driven straight back to base. Experience has told me that in the long run it is cheaper not to deal with a customer like that. I tell them straight, that I will not sell them a car.

Stick to your guns, and defend this case. Your customer is trying to turn you over.

[commaman2]

Quick update. The guy has called my solicitor today, to say he was rude and arrogant would be an under statement!! He said that she was "an idiot, oblivious to the facts" and he would "make pig meat" of her in court!!

[raydetinu]

Thats a good attitude to go to court with, judge will through him out with any luck. why did he contact your solicitor? was it to settle or just to get wound up! whens court date, could be fun now.

[Conniff]

Does your solicitor have phone recording by any chance?

[commaman2]

The conversation was not recorded. She would not be allowed without the consent of the other party, unless it was for training purposes of course!! The solicitor could not belive his attitude!! Something has really rattled him.

 

He called her up because she wrote to him on 1st dec. I also called the court today to see if they had any more correspondence from him. They said he phoned up a few days ago to see if the case was still going ahead!! Well I can't stop it, only he can.

 

his whole attitude has been unreasonable throughout. I'm not just saying that with sour grapes either. Why did it take him 5 months from purchase to raise the issue in the first place?

 

The Court date is set for 22nd of December...Nice....

 

Well one of us is going to have a happy christmas....

 

If anyone wants to see the pictures regarding this case then drop me a PM with an e mail adress and I'll send them on. I'd most welcome more opinion.

[gwc1000]

Well one of us is going to have a happy christmas....

 

I'm convinced it will be you. Good luck.

[Conniff]

The conversation was not recorded. She would not be allowed without the consent of the other party, unless it was for training purposes of course!!

 

 

Anyone can record a telephone conversation and you do not have to ask permission or inform the other party.

 

By not informing that the conversation is being recorded means that the phone call cannot be used in evidence in a court.

 

Anything further progress yet commaman2 ?

[patdavies]

By not informing that the conversation is being recorded means that the phone call cannot be used in evidence in a court.

 

Not quite - the recording can't be used in evidence without the express permission of the Court. The fact of the existence of the recoding (rather than its content) can, of course, be used.

[commaman2]

If there was a recording of any converstation, surely he'd have to ask the court to allow it to be played?

I am, however, convinced that there is no recording of any phone call!! Just another way to try and put pressure on me.

 

The hearing is listed for 10.00am Monday 22 December 2008. Happy Xmas!!

[commaman2]

Oh, and another think. I sent pictures showing the damage to his car and the rust spots. He says the pictures do not show a clear representation of the rust!! I can't do anything right here!!

 

Well if photographs do not show a clear representation of the rust, it just goes to show how insignificant his problem is!!

[Conniff]

Not quite - the recording can't be used in evidence without the express permission of the Court. The fact of the existence of the recoding (rather than its content) can, of course, be used.

 

If there was a recording of any converstation, surely he'd have to ask the court to allow it to be played?

I am, however, convinced that there is no recording of any phone call!! Just another way to try and put pressure on me.

 

The hearing is listed for 10.00am Monday 22 December 2008. Happy Xmas!!

 

As PD says, I just didn't go into the full detail in that post.

 

If he has a recorded call he can biring it to the attention of the court and the judge 'can' ask to hear it if he thinks it is relevent, but it cannot be put forward as evidence without the courts permission.

 

Good luck on 22nd commaman.

[commaman2]

If it were not so funny I'd belive it!!

 

The guy has just called up my solicitor to tell her that he has been on to the national press about this case and they are very interested!!!

 

Unbeliveable!!! Is this some pathetic way to intimidate me?

 

Interest rates plummet, people are dying in Uganda from disease, people are being killed in wars, and he thinks the national press are going to run a story about a guy who found a bit of rust on a 7 year old Jaguar.........

 

Well I'd better get on to the BBC and Reuters pretty sharpish...........

 

might even get on News at Ten monday night!!!

[Conniff]

:)

 

I think he may be getting desperate and trying to push the boundaries because he didn't think you would go this far and now knows that you won't back down.

[commaman2]

Been found liable. The Judge was not interested in anything I had to say. He said the car was not of satisfactory quality and therefore I'm lialbe.

 

I'm devastated. Can apeal but I have to ask for the Judge's permission first, he tells me......

[gwc1000]

I have to say, I'm flabberghasted! Is the Judge saying that a dealer is liable for the cosmetic bodywork on a seven year old car for a period of time after selling it? Considering most seven year old cars have had some paint in their life you cannot have any control over how that paint will fare after it has been through your hands. I hope you will appeal?

[commaman2]

There is the possibilty of appeal, but I need the judge to allow it. My solicitor siad that he was unlikely to allow me to appeal, and it would only be considered if it involved a point of law. The problem being an appeal would undermine him as a judge, and they do not like that! I am devastated by the outcome, really devastated. I need to take some time out and consider an appeal though. I'll talk to the FSB and see what they think.